964 potential purchase advice

[David Emery]

I am considering purchasing another Porsche (my wife has an S2 water pumper) and need some input. It's listed as an 891/2 (?) C4. 65k miles. All is correct except clock and 3 small places where the clearcoat has lifted...2 on front bumper and one on bonnet. Are these, as well as clock easy to repair? Also, shouldn't this year have an air bag in the steering wheel?

The car had several leaks, as they're prone to have I've learned. After re-seal and top end (at 55k) it doesn't leak any more. Cost was 4500.00. Don't know if flywheel has been changed. Likely not since it has original clutch. Is this something to be concerned about along with replacing the clutch? In a 944 it's a bear to replace...around 1400.00.

It's records are on file at the dealership, and appear to be complete. Has used dino oil rather than synthetic.

I'm aware of the drawbacks of a AWD, but live around Seattle...it rains a bit out here. AWD may be an advantage. I'd use it once or twice yearly on the track as a novice.

19,500 firm is the price.

Any advice would really be appreciated. Thanks a lot.

Dave

[Jeff964]

If you want to seek advice about 964, you should go and take a look at http://forums.rennlist.com It has more info and more people who'll be able to help you regarding your particular questions.

[maxnine11]

Some people refer to the first C4s as 89 1/2 to differentiate it from the rest of the 1989 911 Carrera line.
sounds like a great price if the engine HAS been attended to. Get a pre-purchase inspection!! maybe two!
'89 C4s had no airbag.
'89 C4s did NOT have the problematic flywheel.
good luck, Max

[expat]

No air bag is correct.

Clearcoat should be an easy fix.

The clutch and flywheel are an expensive process for the C4. Budget for the remove and replacement given that its still on the original equipment, as a bargaining tool on the 'firm price'.

Clock? Depends upon whats wrong. Could be just as simple as a wire not connected. Maybe the PO had rotated the guages and missed a connection. If clock doesnt work, forget about it and use one on your hand.

I love the AWD - learn to drive it right and it'll love ya back and is also very forgiving.

Hang around here and people will give you free advice. Go to Rennlist and your obliged to become a member (fair enough I guess) but I'd rather give my money to Wayne and buy parts for the car. This board will grow as people put in what they get out of it. Just like the 911 board several years ago. Feel free to ask questions on the 911 board too as the guys there have amazing knowledge and its entertaining too!

Cheers,
Mark

[john_colasante]

The clock is very easy to fix. Just buy a good used one on eBay and pop it in. I think all 964-993 use the same clock and it's pressed into the dash with a rubber ring.

As far as the bodywork this is not a 964 specific issue, obviously.

I thought all 964-on 911's were supposed to use Mobil 1 from the factory. Hmmm...

Sounds like a good value.

[Rick Lee]

John, the factory used Shell until 1997. My '96 C2 even still has the Shell decal on the heater elbow tube. Thereafter they have the Mobil 1 stickers.

[TMH]

Originally posted by expathk

The clutch and flywheel are an expensive process for the C4. Budget for the remove and replacement given that its still on the original equipment, as a bargaining tool on the 'firm price'.

Flywheel issues relating to the original dual-mass flywheels are well publicized. However the MY '89 did not have the problematic DMF so you may not have to reserve for too high a repair/replacement expense.

Good luck,
Tom

[expat]

Originally posted by TMH
Flywheel issues relating to the original dual-mass flywheels are well publicized. However the MY '89 did not have the problematic DMF so you may not have to reserve for too high a repair/replacement expense.

Good luck,
Tom

I guess that will teach me for giving a quick response.

Yes, Tom is correct the DMF is not present in the early 964 but my point (not clearly expressed) is that the clutch replacement is not cheap, requiring the dropping of the engine and trans. on the C4 and naturally the cost of the parts and labour. This is a large expense for most people just purcahsing a car and definitely should be factored in the bargin process. Given that its still on its original clutch I would be expecting a thorough PPI as maybe this is the reason its being sold at this time.

Just trying to promote 'buyer beware'. Its a slippery slope buying a 15 year old performance car. I was caught out on exactly this sitaution when I bought my 87. Two months after purchase I was throwing (HK) $1000's into a clutch replacement and the "Oh...while we've got the engine out......' extras.

[FRED/LI]

Clearcoat???
They weren't produced with clearcoat. I just had some work done on my '90 and the shop confirmed that it had no coating.
If your engine has no obvious leaks....good. You will, at some point, have to replace the seals at the camshaft for the power steering pump. it will announce it's presence by leaking at the front, passenger side of the engine. Price could vary to do this if the shop is knowledgeable about the process. It can be done with engine in car.
As it's fifteen years..the rubber items are going to deteriorate, including plug wires $300-400 a set.
However, if it's a strong and clean car, most of what traditionally goes wrong should have been sorted out by now.
Price is reasonable. Maybe bargain for clutch replacement cost in final offer.
Enjoy!!

[alibaba]

Don't worry about the clutch. By the way you don't have to drop the engine for a clutch job.
The job itself is really not that difficult. Replacement parts are not that expensive. Dropping just the transmission will do and labour costs only half as much as the entire engine / tranny removal.
The pre-89 911s are a different story. Engine removal is necessary in those cases. Basically if the mechanic tell you he needs to drop the engine for a clutch job on a C2 or C4, he's either never done it before or he is trying to rip you off.

[alibaba]

p.s. the 964 C4 is much less forgiving on the limit comparing to the C2s, which are more predictable cars. The C2s handle better on limit and mistakes are more easily corrected. Thats I guess why we see so little C4s on track, where the C2s dominate.
I'm not trying to say the C4s aren't good cars. But I just wouldn't want someone else to give you the wrong impression that the car forgives easily. It won't.

[Britwrench]

Although you can pull the trans without removing the engine on a C2, for a C4 the added complication of dealing with the front diff and torque tube makes it not worth the effort of trying to do it that way.

Of course, if you have the front diff seals leaking (not all that rare) then it would save money to repair the clutch and diff seals at the same time.

On older C2 models the time it takes to try and pull out a sometimes siezed clutch lever crossshaft in the car negates any saving of pulling the transmission only. After doing many of these cars, we find that any
cost savings are minimal, so we remove the engine and trans.

[expat]

Originally posted by alibaba
p.s. the 964 C4 is much less forgiving on the limit comparing to the C2s, which are more predictable cars. The C2s handle better on limit and mistakes are more easily corrected. Thats I guess why we see so little C4s on track, where the C2s dominate.
I'm not trying to say the C4s aren't good cars. But I just wouldn't want someone else to give you the wrong impression that the car forgives easily. It won't.

Is this guying buying it for 'on the limit' driving? I thought he was talking about a 2x a year track driver and the rest being street work?

Oh by the way, I am no skilled track driver but I feel much more in control in my C4 than my 87. Just my experience. Then again I guess I am not comparing apples to apples as my C4 is way modified compared to the 87.

Originally posted by alibaba
Don't worry about the clutch. By the way you don't have to drop the engine for a clutch job.
The job itself is really not that difficult. Replacement parts are not that expensive. Dropping just the transmission will do and labour costs only half as much as the entire engine / tranny removal.
The pre-89 911s are a different story. Engine removal is necessary in those cases. Basically if the mechanic tell you he needs to drop the engine for a clutch job on a C2 or C4, he's either never done it before or he is trying to rip you off.

Wow I'd like to hear from some more mechanics on this one. I must be getting bent over royally! I don't know anyone in South Australia or Hong Kong who does just the tranny for a clutch job, although its obviously possible. I'm seeing two mechanics who are friends of mine at the PCHK Sunday drive tommorrow. I'll challenge them on this as they've been ripping people off obviously. My experience (YMV) is there is little time saved (therefore $$) in a tranny only job but then again I'm not a mechanic, just a weekend jockey whos now feeling pretty pissed if my mates are ripping me off. Thanks for the heads up alibaba.

[expat]

Originally posted by Britwrench
.....we find that any
cost savings are minimal, so we remove the engine and trans.

Ok..faith restored slightly. See what my friends say tomorrow and I'll post it here. Just in the interest of getting a complete story you understand

[Britwrench]

And not forgetting that, the next time any Porsche (or anything else, for that matter) comes in for "just a clutch" it will be the first time.

[expat]

Originally posted by Britwrench
And not forgetting that, the next time any Porsche (or anything else, for that matter) comes in for "just a clutch" it will be the first time.

ROFLOL

[alibaba]

I suppose all mechanics work in different ways. Perhaps its just me, but I find removing just the transmission much easier than doing the whole lot.
Britwrench - Yes, some people might find dropping the engine / transmission easier, but thats their preference, not me. I honestly can't say there is no time saving involved in doing the transmission alone.
Expat - No, in places like Hong Kong as you should know, mechanics don't charge by the hour like in the states. They charge by the type of job involved.
Yes, there is costs saving involved. Dropping the transmission alone will cost HK$3,000 - $4,000 labour. Dropping the whole lot will cost HK$7,000 - $8,000 labour.
Expat, if you know Mr. Wong from Gembella Hong Kong, ask him. He will verify this with you. There is an obvious difference in price here.
Britwrench, perhaps this is the way you work and charge your customers. However, you should perhaps reconsider the way you work. Could it be that you can't do the job in any other different ways?
Yes, people do just need a clutch job at times. I can't see why you would want to do everything else at the same time when they don't need working on.

[alibaba]

p.s. Britwrench, perhaps you should remember to lube the cross shaft properly the next time you do a clutch job, so that it won't "seize up" on you the next time you try to remove it.

[alibaba]

p.s. Expat, what good will it do by asking the so called mechanic friends of yours, who are I presume the very people whose been ripping you off all this time. What kind of truth do you think you will get out of them? If you are really interested in finding out, I would suggest you get a second opinion.

[expat]

Firstly David, I'm sorry your post is being somewhat highjacked here. Have you made any decision yet?


alibaba - Why are you so hostile?

I am pleased you have suggeted an alternative to the engine drop practice and if indeed this proves to be a prudent move, then that is excellent and maybe some of the P-car mechanics could consider this an alternative (read: 'better') procedure.

Without trying too press a too fine a point on it here I think it is reasonable for me to ask my friends by the very definition of the word friends. Have you ever had mates? These are people who look out for each other, they spend time together and do 'stuff' together. I tend to feel they are fairly honest guys and I wanted to get their justification for their belief about pulling the engine to get to the clutch. Perhaps I should be more suspicious......

Anyhow....I asked them this morning and they both said that there was no gain in just removing the tranny. Both said that in 1.5 hrs they have the engine and tranny down and like Britwreck suggested, they rarely do just the clutch. In more cases than not, there are other problems that are either predicted or come up that make it beneficial to drop the engine.

Now your point about asking someone independant is fair enough, I will ring Mr Wong (Gemballa) first thing Monday morning as you suggest, and also Barry (Road and Track) and see what they suggest. Again, just to get some balance and bring a conclusion to this now somewhat wayward thread. Unfortunately I have never seen Mr Wong (Gemballa) come to a PCHK drive. Mr Wong (Carrera Motorsports) does come however, and he said (this morning) dropping the engine in 1.5 hrs was the go for his workshop (for a clutch job).

I dont know whether you would consider this independant, but also did some searching on Rennlist 964 Forum late last night and again while it is clear you certainly can just drop the tranny, it does not seem common practice in either a) DIY circles b) workshops.

Finally, just so we are clear here, your experience and preference is ok with me and like you said...

'I suppose all mechanics work in different ways.'

but I think the other statement you made.....

'....if the mechanic tell you he needs to drop the engine for a clutch job on a C2 or C4, he's either never done it before or he is trying to rip you off.'

is inaccurate and misleading.