Brake and Service Help Needed!!

[msark]

I have a 91 C2 Targa. In the last several days an onsite mechanic has replaced all the CV boots, front tie rod ends, 4 rotors, all pads, all pad insulators, pad sensors and stainless steel brake lines as well as my newly found lower temp switch for the front oil cooler fan. The car stopped fine before the work but the pads were getting worn which was ALL that was on the original service request. I took has word about the rest needing to be done as I believe he is telling me the truth about the needed items. Since the work was done the brakes squeak, the master caution light is on, the brake sensor light is on, car pulls left when stopping and the oil cooler fan is always on. On the road test the front brakes now lock up (as if the ABS does not even engage). The repairman said that it's the stainless steel lines that cause the lock up and the ABS not to work (hard to believe) and it commonly accepted. He has been trying to sort out the problems for 3 days. My plan to take the car to San Diego is now out the window since I am concerned about taking the car on the road at all.

Question 1: Is the brake line replacement the cause of the lock up problem / ABS failure?

Question 2: Should I just let him try for a 4th day at my house to repair the car or am I best served taking it to a real shop? The repairman in question is trying hard but does not have the OBS diagnostic tool and seems over his head on the C2. I'm concerned he may have ruined the $1200 master cylinder.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

[msark]

I have a 91 C2 Targa. In the last several days an onsite mechanic has replaced all the CV boots, front tie rod ends, 4 rotors, all pads, all pad insulators, pad sensors and stainless steel brake lines as well as my newly found lower temp switch for the front oil cooler fan. The car stopped fine before the work but the pads were getting worn which was ALL that was on the original service request. I took has word about the rest needing to be done as I believe he is telling me the truth about the needed items. Since the work was done the brakes squeak, the master caution light is on, the brake sensor light is on, car pulls left when stopping and the oil cooler fan is always on. On the road test the front brakes now lock up (as if the ABS does not even engage). The repairman said that it's the stainless steel lines that cause the lock up and the ABS not to work (hard to believe) and it commonly accepted. He has been trying to sort out the problems for 3 days. My plan to take the car to San Diego is now out the window since I am concerned about taking the car on the road at all.

Question 1: Is the brake line replacement the cause of the lock up problem / ABS failure?

Question 2: Should I just let him try for a 4th day at my house to repair the car or am I best served taking it to a real shop? The repairman in question is trying hard but does not have the OBS diagnostic tool and seems over his head on the C2. I'm concerned he may have ruined the $1200 master cylinder.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

[Don Plumley]

Sorry about your problems.

I have read posts that some SS brake lines cause problems with the ABS unit. I would not say it is commonly accepted however. I don't think it would ruin an MC though.

The brake sensor light sounds like a bad or not connected wear sensor.

Not having a Bosch Hammer or similar OBD diagnostic tool makes this very difficult and a shame he does not have one.

If it were my car, I would either try a different brand SS line (Stop Tech) or go with OEM rubber lines. Honestly, if you are not tracking the car, there's no good reason for SS lines.

To debug the problem, I'd swap back the original rubber lines and prove it was the problem.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Don

[MobileWrks]

....Question#1: FYI. it is not a full wheel lock up. By applying the brake, HARD.. The front gives a slight skid once upon stopping. By me not having scan tool with me down south, i had a full day(8 hours) of proccess of elimination by manual labor to find problem.. REASON, was that the indicater light warning, was coming on, right on start up.. Problem..air in the system caused low pressure to form, and pedal travel exceeded to far.. After a full days of work, car stops on a dime! Cusomer concern, is that the a.b.s may not be working proper doto last minute skid in front only....
Had No fluid come out of both brake lines, prior to doing the SS lines. Aswell as a large amount of air, took 3 brake bleeds to cure stopping/ cushy pedal

.... Question #2.. Honesty works best, i have no problem with positive or neg comments....

.....Question #3.FULL pressure in brake system!! NO AIR on pedal applied for 1min, released and reapplied for pressure check to make sure pedal point did not change....

FYI: He watched alot of work being done, so when something wasnt right, he was there for an explination..big or small...


* Keep in mind, fresh textar pads, and zimmerman rotors..super blue brake fluid,SS brake lines, tie rods front(wheel alignment close on installation, but not done to spec..axle boots replaced doto 1 on each side was torn off, with no axle grease in place, but bearings didnt suffer at time of repair.Front lower than average, and rear adj spindle is at its max..*

Prior to the work, car was never road tested, for the chance of a possible valve adjustment in the begining.(so, i jumped right on it)

[RWebb]

how many miles on the new pads? did you bed them in?

- seems like there are other problems too...

you can ask him if he wants to try again - say you are worried about damage to the m/c,,, ask about the obd tool.. be up front with him

[MobileWrks]

....Question#1: FYI. it is not a full wheel lock up. By applying the brake, HARD.. The front gives a slight skid once upon stopping. By me not having scan tool with me down south, i had a full day(8 hours) of proccess of elimination by manual labor to find problem.. REASON, was that the indicater light warning, was coming on, right on start up.. Problem..air in the system caused low pressure to form, and pedal travel exceeded to far.. After a full days of work, car stops on a dime! Cusomer concern, is that the a.b.s may not be working proper doto last minute skid in front only....
Had No fluid come out of both brake lines, prior to doing the SS lines. Aswell as a large amount of air, took 3 brake bleeds to cure stopping/ cushy pedal

.... Question #2.. Honesty works best, i have no problem with positive or neg comments....

.....Question #3.FULL pressure in brake system!! NO AIR on pedal applied for 1min, released and reapplied for pressure check to make sure pedal point did not change....

FYI: He watched alot of work being done, so when something wasnt right, he was there for an explination..big or small...


* Keep in mind, fresh textar pads, and zimmerman rotors..super blue brake fluid,SS brake lines, tie rods front(wheel alignment close on installation, but not done to spec..axle boots replaced doto 1 on each side was torn off, with no axle grease in place, but bearings didnt suffer at time of repair.Front lower than average, and rear adj spindle is at its max..*

Prior to the work, car was never road tested, for the chance of a possible valve adjustment in the begining.(so, i jumped right on it)

[Don Plumley]

I'd certainly trust Mr. Deering to work on my car anytime.

[BReyes]

MSARK:
The SS lines should be not be a problem. With the work done , and including proper (lots) brake bleeding, and bedding the pads/rotors, yours should be normal, given all warning lights are off (I just did a brake job on my 996 and read up on ABS it so I could prevent any ABS problem - what worked for me was that I started the car and ran it the whole time I was bleeding the brakes).

Once that is done a slight skid is not unusual for the my 911. I say this and although I am talking about an 87, since I know the feel of ABS on my 996, I want to comment so you have more positive information to go by (so you move on) . Yes the driver can make a 911 skid, albeit disconcerning, but it should stop very well unless the brakes are slammed hard. My 87 has skidded a couple of times and after discussing on the forum, I am still aware of the possibilty of a skid, but not worried about it being a problem.

Another day of work on a 911 is not unheard of, they are very time consuming, and the pros I have let work on my car(s) also have occasionally taken extra long to get something perfect.

As far as the fan, I would have to look further into that and come backlater to comment if needed.

MobileWrks: Commendable you pop in here to comment.

Hope all concerns calm down.

Regards,

[MobileWrks]

The fan was researched by customer and ordered. I was told to install it.
Yes the brakes were slammed to the max, and was not a 4 wheel lock up, just a slight skid from the front..

i too also exp another c2 did similiar skid on all fresh parts. The brakes were drivin approx 25 miles + or -. With several slams to asure the master was working and the abs pump wasnt feeding more to one side..

I dont dought my work, just posting to keep all information at its best...

FYI, he is towing it too TRE, and i spoke to David that will scan see and fix issue today..
Option left last night was he wants to tow it, and not drive it with a brake sensor on...

Regards.. Jimmy

Thanks for any replys on or info

[Scarabjet]

Me too! Jimmy is very competent and honest!

[MobileWrks]

Final results in from shop....

* Abs pump good *
* Ind light was doto the brake pad sensor shorting out *
* Dome light between sun visors was bad, causing the fuse to blow, and clock not to work *

- Talk to the guys over at the ship where car was taken too.. Both guys i spoke to said car ran and stopped great, overall great car.....-

Repairs.
*Install front lower brace gaurd*
*CV boots inner and outter replaced(2 torn all the way off)*
*Both door stops*
*Oil and filter change*
*Front & rear pads,rotors and sensors*
*Tie rods ends*
*Bleed and flush brake system*
*Door handle rod clips*
*Change temp switch to cooler fans*
* Sensor light came on doto brake pedal pressure low. Bled sytem several times, and just went ahead and replaced brake lines to stainless steel..*

Warning Light went off for most of road test. Came back on after sometime during road test..also front brake sensor shorted..

Car is at local shop, and have already spoke to the guys over there. Gave me all the details, and nothing major wrong with the car..ABS/MC etc..

20 hours +worked
13.5 billed

Thursday was last day worked on, Fri was taken to the shop to be checked (i was told not to touch it doto sensor coming on, and being accused of reuining the abs pump)
Was told Tues he will get car back, and ill be payed then after the holiday weekend.

I sent an email letting cust know the results were in, and i was told what was done. He wanted to get the bill from shop, check reports, and pay me then.
SO, instead of me sitting and playing lets make a deal, and probly excpecting to pay some of what shop has charged him... Email was sent to customer, and told him to dont worry about the $900 and 3 days worked... 2 days later, no email returned...

Thanks to all the email and PM's regarding this issue.

Happy Friday,(one week later) and ill move on from this exp....


Jimmy

[MobileWrks]

Final results in from shop....

* Abs pump good *
* Ind light was doto the brake pad sensor shorting out *
* Dome light between sun visors was bad, causing the fuse to blow, and clock not to work *

- Talk to the guys over at the ship where car was taken too.. Both guys i spoke to said car ran and stopped great, overall great car.....-

Repairs.
*Install front lower brace gaurd*
*CV boots inner and outter replaced(2 torn all the way off)*
*Both door stops*
*Oil and filter change*
*Front & rear pads,rotors and sensors*
*Tie rods ends*
*Bleed and flush brake system*
*Door handle rod clips*
*Change temp switch to cooler fans*
* Sensor light came on doto brake pedal pressure low. Bled sytem several times, and just went ahead and replaced brake lines to stainless steel..*

Warning Light went off for most of road test. Came back on after sometime during road test..also front brake sensor shorted..

Car is at local shop, and have already spoke to the guys over there. Gave me all the details, and nothing major wrong with the car..ABS/MC etc..

20 hours +worked
13.5 billed

Thursday was last day worked on, Fri was taken to the shop to be checked (i was told not to touch it doto sensor coming on, and being accused of reuining the abs pump)
Was told Tues he will get car back, and ill be payed then after the holiday weekend.

I sent an email letting cust know the results were in, and i was told what was done. He wanted to get the bill from shop, check reports, and pay me then.
SO, instead of me sitting and playing lets make a deal, and probly excpecting to pay some of what shop has charged him... Email was sent to customer, and told him to dont worry about the $900 and 3 days worked... 2 days later, no email returned...

Thanks to all the email and PM's regarding this issue.

Happy Friday,(one week later) and ill move on from this exp....


Jimmy

[Scarabjet]

Jimmy,
I was one of the customers that was scheduled and had to be postponed so you could do the right thing to this person's vehicle.Sorry it turned out the way it did.
On my behalf, all I can say is that your work and honestly have been examplary. You have not only repaired problems on my 911 that were scheduled but problems that were caused by others.Do you think the finger tight lug nuts on the front wheel was worse than the loose 930 tie rods upgrade.?.... plus tax....

[Airkooled82]

I used Jimmy a few times. I had never misjudged his idea, and or thoughts on making the car better than what it is or was... He is young, and his personality sets him stright. If you really trusted your tech, that first bulliten will have never been posted! To ask our Pcar community if you would keep him around or come back for a 4 time.. If you sat there at knew what he has to do to your car, you know its alot of work. Also takes alot to know every car especially how most of them are not the same..
Jimmy has flew to different states to help other pcar guys. His passion for these cars are who we want to keep around in the Porsche world. Its never about the money to him. For him to walk on half the time spent, and even at that 3 days waisted time before a holiday weekend.. THATS WRONG!
EVERYBODY tells him he charges to little... 1 year later, still insists he likes it the way it is.. Him coming to me means the world! I live on a hill 6 miles from anyone, wife hates my car and refuses to take me and drop me off.
BTW the 3 trips from Corona to Encino, in traffic leaving and coming.. In the Denali????
And you are willing to let Jimmy walk unpaid? He clearly is doing his part to fix your car! I think you should do yours and still insists to pay him....

*D

[Airkooled82]

(Comment above... Yes, he finds others mistakes, and fixes them for free cause he feels bad for you spending twice??? Am i right..)

I used Jimmy a few times. I had never misjudged his idea, and or thoughts on making the car better than what it is or was... He is young, and his personality sets him stright. If you really trusted your tech, that first bulliten will have never been posted! To ask our Pcar community if you would keep him around or come back for a 4 time.. If you sat there at knew what he has to do to your car, you know its alot of work. Also takes alot to know every car especially how most of them are not the same..
Jimmy has flew to different states to help other pcar guys. His passion for these cars are who we want to keep around in the Porsche world. Its never about the money to him. For him to walk on half the time spent, and even at that 3 days waisted time before a holiday weekend.. THATS WRONG!
EVERYBODY tells him he charges to little... 1 year later, still insists he likes it the way it is.. Him coming to me means the world! I live on a hill 6 miles from anyone, wife hates my car and refuses to take me and drop me off.
BTW the 3 trips from Corona to Encino, in traffic leaving and coming.. In the Denali????
And you are willing to let Jimmy walk unpaid? He clearly is doing his part to fix your car! I think you should do yours and still insists to pay him....

*D

[Don Plumley]

Moderator: This is now a duplicate of a thread on the main board, so I will merge the two.

Editorial Comment: There are always two perspectives to every situation. I think the open discussion is valuable to the community. So as long as this can remain a factual dialog, it should remain open for comment. But we reserve the right to close/move the thread if it becomes destructive for either party.

Brakes are critical safety equipment so I think there is an important lesson here: If anyone is uncomfortable with their brake system - having the car towed to a reputable shop is the best money you'll spend on the car - regardless of who worked on it: you, your friend, the dealer, etc.

Don

[JeremyD]

New pads commonly squeak until properly bed - especially with new rotors too.

Stainless steel brake lines will not cuase problems with ABS systems.

One of the things I hated on my C2 - was any little problem and the master caution comes on.

I had one of the spoiler sensors fail - caution comes on. I ran over a piece of tire, the brake sensor was damaged - the master caution comes on -

I gave my wife this speech when I first got the car - if the caution light comes on - pull over, turn the car off and call me immediately. After a few of these minor issues - I was like - just drive the damn thing.

As far as Jimmy goes - pay him for what he did.

Install front lower brace gaurd*
*CV boots inner and outter replaced(2 torn all the way off)*
*Both door stops*
*Oil and filter change*
*Front & rear pads,rotors and sensors*
*Tie rods ends*
*Bleed and flush brake system*
*Door handle rod clips*
*Change temp switch to cooler fans*

I doubt he put a gun to your head made you say yes.

[Scarabjet]

Aircooled82,
Yes. That is a fact. Jimmy repaired several overlooked mistakes for free because he felt I shouldn't have to pay twice for the same repair (I was dumbfounded to say the least). IMHO, Jimmy is a honest to goodness kind human being first and a great P-Car mechanic second.

[msark]

Folks:

Thank you for your passionate comments. The ONLY goal of my initial post was looking for help & information.
I made certain not to name the mechanic involved as it would serve no useful purpose.

Jimmy took it on himself to rebut the initial posting and identify himself. Since there are several mobile mechanics in Southern Calif it might have been any of them.

In the meantime you should note that in Jimmy’s post earlier today he said that “Final results in from shop” which is NOT TRUE. The car is still at the shop which was CLOSED at the time his post was made. The car is in process and the issues are being addressed.

In speaking with one of the principals of that business, they noted that they “Only knew Jimmy from his initial call and despite his making calls to them they have not given out details of their findings”. I’m sure that’s because they don’t have a final report! I have found this shop to be forthright and communicative.

If it were as simple & clear cut as he says would the car still be there after a week?

Food for thought: Jimmy’s working very hard to disparage / discredit me yet I wouldn't even name him…….

[J Richard]

As a response to the original point of this thread, I have SS lines on one of my cars and have no issue with the ABS. If the ABS is working you can still get a partial skid, when the abs is working you will feel the pedal pulsate as it is modulating the stop, without abs you can easily flat spot a tire.

The abs system on the car is pretty sophisticated, it takes the right equipment, If the system is blead out it takes a hammer to reset. Setting the alignment can be done in the field on a track car but in my mind accuracy demands the shop equipment.

I think the subsequent issues should serve as examples on a few points:

1. I have stopped using shops, good shops, when repairs are made without my prior agreement and or understanding of the cost, yes sometimes it is the "right" thing to do, but damit it's my car and my money I should be able to make the decision on what should/will be done. I have even had some do "free" little things on the car, but it still makes me feel put on the spot, and I pay for this work anyway, but I don't appreciate not having a say so. If I agree to the work then I pay, even if it eventually cost a bit more than the estimate, if I agree ahead of the work being done then I have no right to take issue with it unless it is done wrong.

2. Porsches are not chevys, they are expensive cars to work on and maintain, I have gotten in trouble by trying to have some things done on the cheap, that in the long run ended up costing me much more than if I had taken it to the dealer. I had a shop rebuild a set of Koni's on an early car, the price was too good to pass up, and after much ado, they leaked and the car handled like crap, ultimately I had to replace them all. If all the work listed on this thread was for $900, that would be a steal! and I'm not talking dealer prices either.

3. In fairness Mark did not post or refer to the mechanic in question and was looking for advice, I would do the same if I was in the same position, pelican is a great resource for that kind of help, I don't see it as a personal attack at all.

4. As frustrating as this seems on both sides, I would pay for the work that was done and expect to be paid for work that I did. I would not pay for work that was incomplete or wrong, and I would not expect to be paid for the same. Thats business...

anyway just my .02cents, and I'm not charging that because it's not worth anything....

hope you guys get it sorted out.