HELP - Oil Leaks & I've Searched!!!

[dleefso]

Hey Folks - So I just got my first 911/964 and am loving it ('91 C2 just for the record)! I am having to address a few things and this forum and the members are great - thanks for all the help thus far!!!

Here's the deal, the car has 82k miles and the engine is tight. Here is a general pic of the motor. This is how I got the car, no engine detail yet but still pretty clean.



So I have two oil leaks. I knew she leaked oil but it is worse than the dealership said (of course) so I think it's a good idea to address these now. Here is a pic of what is being left on the ground. Note that the leaks are toward the back of the car and on each side of the motor - I included the license plate for reference.



So here is a pic of the leak from underneath and I am calling the left side the driver's side. You can see the leak pretty clearly. I haven't looked in my manual yet to even know what I am looking at yet. It seems pretty clear that it is coming from the gasket/s on the darker piece. I also hate to sound so ignorant but I just don't have experience on Porsche's but have definitely done my share of auto work so no worries on doing basic to slightly more advanced repairs. I also have the shop manual on disk and that helps tremendously.




Now on to the right side (passenger side). Also, for the record though, the crankcase is pretty dry - a couple barely moist areas but from all that I have read, this is pretty much expected. The right side seems to be this whole piece/unit and again, haven't looked up what it is thus far.




Now over a little further and look dead certer of the photo - you can see the oil spot.



Now this is the top side above the above pics. This just shows 'moist' grime which leads me to believe the whole gasket on this part is the culprit for the right side leak. Again too, just got the car and haven't done full detail yet - figured addressing things like leaks, etc. are a tad bit more important. I did do a basic cleaning of the bottom though so I could see these leaks.



So that is it. I know there is a lot on oil leaks but I figured if I provided photos that the oh so wise ones would really narrow down my issues. I'll also seach my manual tonight on what I am looking at in the photos. More info is that those spots on the ground are after around 2 or 3 days. If you need any other info just let me know!

Thanks so much!!!!
David

BTW. Here is my little German girl, not the best pic but the best I could do in my garage - she's in great shape though, was woman owned and clearly garaged her whole life. I'm sure it was an easy going 82k miles and the interior is just about perfect and original. The color also really grew on me too!!!

[aigel]

Nice car. Congrats!

The chains that run the cams are under those covers - chain housing covers. Should be a fun exercise to change the gaskets and see if it helps. Pretty safe place to dig around in.

Tracing oil leaks on these engines often require diagnostic changing of gaskets and seals. What I am saying is that you sometimes end up guessing and changing a lot of gaskets and seals until you find the one that was the culprit. Oil moves not only from top to bottom, it also sometimes creeps sideways and gets blown around.

After the oil leaks are taken care of, you need to lower the car and get rid of those wheels.

George

[dleefso]

Thanks for the look and info! I know I'll poke and prod and really my main goal with this post is to know where to start. I'll go ahead and look at the shop manual to see what is involved with replacing the timing chain housing gaskets. I think that is definitely it on the right side but not sure on the left as it looks like there were more little parts that could be leaking and or of course it could be more than one thing. I was just pretty happy to see it relatively dry on the crankcase and heads!!!

Thanks on the nice car and I agree on the lowering but I actually like the stock wheels - they are in mint condition so will probably keep for a while!

BTW - Should I attempt to just tighten the bolts on those covers a bit and at least just see if this slows the leaks? At least maybe check to see if any bolts are loose and perhaps this could be a way to at least narrow down the primary leaks??? I wouldn't think it would stop them but if it slows them then maybe I've narrowed it down?

BTW BTW - If I end up pulling the chain covers, any 'while I'm at it' tasks to do?

Thanks again!
David

[aigel]

David,

Tightening is not the answer when the gasket has expired. You may over-torque the fasteners (stripping threads, deforming covers etc.) I recommend replacing the gaskets that look suspect. Installation needs to be on clean and flat surfaces and I recommend a small torque wrench to get even torque on all fasteners.

I have not been into my 3.6, but as far as I can tell, the chain housing covers are pretty easy on that engine. Let's wait and have the senior guys chime in before you start breaking out the wrenches.

Good Luck!

George

[lucittm]

David,
Here is a thought. Drive the car.
Mine leaked when I first got it. It seems that it sat awhile (30+ days) while it was for sale. Short demo drives are not enough to get the engine nice and hot.

You will see some relief after several medium-long trips in your new car. Oh, and keep an eye on the oil tank level. Your leaks are minor, but there is the "Law of Oil Aggregation", also known as the ratio of engine oil to garage floor. This equals a formula where you take the square of the size of the oil stains in square centimeters and multiply it by the number of empty oil cans in your garage and divide this by the price of Mobil 1, rounded to the nearest dollar at Pep Boys this weekend. If your answer is a whole number and/or any fraction of the number 1, then you need to check your oil tank level.

Sigh,
Mark

[dleefso]

Thanks George and Mark - I agree on the tightening but may just see if anything is clearly loose. Will not tighten without torque wrench or extreme care. I also agree with keeping an eye on the leaks while the car is transitioning from sitting since September at the dealership. It also does look like the cam covers are pretty accessible all things considered. I really think I'm going to clean the areas off again and just watch more closely to see exactly where they are coming from. I think I have a decent view of the area and knowing where they are at is a huge part of the battle. For the waiting and driving a while, maybe I'll put off messing with it until the next oil change so I don't waste good oil! I am also watching the level closely as well.

Thanks again all!
David

[amr89c4]

Nice car!

I had the same leaks and just repaired them myself two weeks ago. Its time consuming, but not difficult job, especially if you become anal and want to clean all the oily parts up.

You need the timing chain cover gaskets (2) and the timing chain cover grommets(18 as I recall). Looks like you have one of two timing chain cover bridges and one of two chain tensioner housings leaking. Trust me, theo the others will be leaking shortly. There are a couple of pricey gaskets on the tensioner housing and two different O rings on the bridge assemblies.

I removed the engine sound deadener panels, the engine tins and the rear engine mount (support the engine with a jack). You can change the timing chain cover gaskets without pulling the engine as I and many others have. The passenger side cover is the tight/tricky one, but it can be done pretty easily if you have an assistant.

Its late but if you want more detail there are a few good "how to's" via search. Or you can call me and I'll be glad to tell you my experience. Again, its more time consuming than it is tough, if you have a good assortment of tools etc.

Good luck and again, NICE CAR!

Lynn
89 C4

[roofbolter]

My car is leaking alot were the cases bolt together. any body know about how much it would cost to have to engine pulled and all the gaskets- o rings replaced. Just wondering


Steve
90 C4- 93K

[dleefso]

Hey Steve - No idea on cost but you are going to get a lot 'while you're at it' ideas with that plan. You may just try to isolate the leak/s and go from there. At first I was fairly distressed with my leaks just because of how much it was leaking but now that I know where they are, I have plans to knock them out one by one. If your bottom pan is still on, remove it and do a basic cleaning and then keep an eye on it for a few days.

So that's my two cents and it's probably worth a quarter of that!

David

[roofbolter]

I have already pulled the pan, the main leak is where the cases are bolted together.

[Britwrench]

Timing cover and timing chain housing to case leaks are one of those things on early 964s.
The seals harden with age and heat, tightening won't do anything.

I would be more concerned about the oil around the base of cylinder #1 in your photo.

You still have the old style steel/rubber hose from the engine to oil filter adaptor, that leaks as well.

If the car wasn't driven much the age and heat hardened oil return tube seals leak, driving the car reduces that as the oil doesn't settle in the crankcase.

The other issue is the crankcase through bolt o-rings, it's possible to have a perfectly oil-tight engine, apart from one of the o-rings leaking.

Best thing is to very thoroughly wash the engine and drive it for 200 or so miles, then check for the leak(s) source.

Roofbolter:
Are you sure it's not the case bolt 0-rings? The case halves tend not to leak
To repair is engine out and cylinders removed at the very minimum.
As your car is pre-head gasket 964 there will be a fair amount of "while you are in there" repairs if a shop does it so they can offer a warranty.

[911cedric]

well,

in my opinion, it's useless to try to look for a leak on those engine.
964s always leak.
keep the protection cover under the motor if you don't want oil all over your garage.
Really, do not try to tighten the gasket bolts, it will become worst, and you can break'em.

just keep an eyes on the oil level and that's it.

if it really drops too much, i can tell you from my experience at the shop that it's much worst to remove the engine and replace all seals and gaskets at once. It will be a gain of time and money for you.
When few are screwed, others are not far of leaking too.

cheers.