95 993 with 135k... thoughts on mileage/engine longevity?

Tishabet · 05-15-2009, 08:38 AM

Hi guys,

I am considering buying a newer Porsche, and with the economic downturn the 993 series is starting to fall within my price range.

I am looking somewhat seriously at a 95 993 C4 which has 135k on the odometer and has never had top end or bottom end work performed. I will of course have a PPI if I decide to move forward with this car and should get some vitals in the form of leakdown and compression, but thought I would ask you guys first... is 135k prohibitively high mileage for a 993?

I would be looking to use this car as my daily driver, so I'd be putting 1,000-1,500 miles per month on it.

Thanks!

GregB7S4 · 05-15-2009, 10:12 AM

At that mileage and with no engine work I would be cautious. You don't want to be the guy that has to spend $8-10,000 on the top end rebuild. Make sure the leakdown test is done by a Porsche expert. Are there records? Has the car been well maintained? At least it is a 95 so no OBDII/SAI issues to worry about. FWIW I just bought an 89 964C4 with 165k miles on it for a very low price. In the last 40k miles it had a top end rebuild and a new clutch installed so I am hoping the big ticket items are not an issue for me, plus I will probably only put 2-3,000 miles on it per year.

flskala · 05-15-2009, 07:50 PM

I hope it's not the same 95 993 C4 I had a PPI done on a while back...
She needed approx. 5k in repairs.

The mileage might be an issue. Overall, I think 993's valve guides fail at a much lesser percentage than 87-89 911's. With them, it's almost gauranteed (ask me how I know...).

My advice - go varioram my friend. I sure did !!!

motobrett · 05-15-2009, 08:00 PM

Funny...an 80k MSRP car with an engine that is all used up at 135k.

Asking others opinions is really useless...

Get a PPI, do a compression/leakdown...

I have owned cars with 400k on the clock that ran better than others with 30k on the clock. I had a Hyundai Excel with 220k all original and the only thing that killed that car was a tree.

Any engine can go 200k. 300k...

Do your due diligence. Don't ask non-certified shade-tree mechanics on a website.

Best of luck, get the test and if it's good don't look back.

flskala · 05-15-2009, 08:29 PM

that car was much less than 80k in 995.

and personally, I wouldn't take any advice from anybody that has spent 220k miles of their life in a Hyundai Excel (that posts on Porsche website)...

repp · 05-15-2009, 08:45 PM

911 are very strong reliable solid cars. it s all about maintenance.
211,000 with no top or bottom end work still pulls very strong.
get a ppi.

mongrelcat · 09:11 PM

Search "nadler" or "epe" at rennlist to figure out where to go for a PPI.

Exotec in NH is highly recommended for top-end jobs, should you need one. Last I heard it's about $3.5k there.

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/993-forum/342583-boston-993-mechanic.html

I would definitely PM flskala (from this thread) as well, if it's the same car that he looked into then you can save a lot of time and expense by talking to him/her.

I just purchased a '95 C2 w/ 100k miles, and learned a lot in the process. I wrote a book of a thread about it over at rennlist. Long story short, I'm ecstatic to have my first p-car -- first 911 -- and it's a 993! I'm very lucky overall. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions, I'd be glad to help.

motobrett · 05-15-2009, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flskala

that car was much less than 80k in 995.

and personally, I wouldn't take any advice from anybody that has spent 220k miles of their life in a Hyundai Excel (that posts on Porsche website)...

1. You are awesome.

2. The Hyundai was a hand-me down and I was 16 at the time. It was a great car. Sorry to have offended you.

3. How many M64 engines have you had apart?

flskala · 05-16-2009, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motobrett

1. You are awesome.

2. The Hyundai was a hand-me down and I was 16 at the time. It was a great car. Sorry to have offended you.

3. How many M64 engines have you had apart?

1. yes, I know & have been told. Thanks.

2. doesn't matter. I had a friend that had one. I refused to ride in it.
When I was 19 my Daddy bought me an 85 targa. Sorry you had to endure that.

3. none. I pay people to rebuild my engines. My time is too important.

**as a note to the original poster. The car I had PPI'd was a 95 carrera 4 in Iris blue with 105k on the clock. A dealer in CT was selling it.

***sure 911 engines can last very long (if you're lucky). Nearly 90% of everyone I know with a 87-89 has at least had the top end done.

-shadetree mechanic

Tishabet · 05-16-2009, 06:12 AM

Hey guys,

thanks for the feedback. As stated in my original post, I am of course going to have a PPI if I decide to move forward with this car. I was really just asking if you guys, with your experience with the 993 series, would advise moving forward at all with a car with that kind of mileage and no engine work. From the sound of it, you guys figure it's quite possible that this 140k engine is just fine and that I should find out one way or the other with a PPI... sounds like good advice to me.

I think I'd prefer a 95 without the SAI concern to a 96-98 with Varioram.

FYI, the car I'm looking at is Guard's red and in PA.

g_vaxed · 05-16-2009, 06:39 AM

My 97 993 has just over 100k on the clock with only clutchwork to speak of.
As I've said before here, the SAI issue is way overblown. No oil leaks/consumption & no engine light issues Ever. I do believe the 95's had a recall for some issue. The more experienced guys with 95's could chime in. Many mechanics that work on them every day said to go with 96 thru 98. So, +1 on the varioram!

fyi, mine is Gaurds red too - be ready to be pulled over alot...lol.

mongrelcat · 05-16-2009, 09:07 AM

From what I gather it's difficult at best to determine valve guide wear with a PPI. You really need to know how much oil the engine is burning. Conservatively some say 1000 miles/quart is when you need to consider a top-end job. Others say 300-400 miles/quart is fine. I think the factory says 600-700 miles/quart.

So if you have an enthusiast PO that will share that info with you, you're good. Otherwise, I would plan on a top-end in the future. Given that the car will be a DD, I'd say near future. Of course you may go 300k miles and never need one, but due to the soft guides that the factory used, and QC issues, that's not likely. Some engines that have been broken down to be built as race motors have needed new guides with as few as 20-30k miles.

Adding to the complexity of knowing how much oil a car is burning is that the 993 is tricky that way. Each car has a point where it will burn through oil and then settle. So, if you overfill above that point it will burn down quickly, leading one to possibly believe that they have a problem. It takes awhile to learn where this point is, where it measures on the dipstick, and where it measures on the gauge. This can all vary a bit from car to car, and the levels read differently depending on temperature. Once this natural "full" point is found, then one can measure true oil consumption on the car.

I ended up with an early non-Varioram ODB1 car, by luck really, I had no idea there was a difference from early '95 993's and the rest at the time of purchase. I believe some late '95 models are Varioram ODB2. If you are particularly handy as a mechanic or have one that's willing to work on non-standard stuff Varioram can be added to the early '95 ODB1 cars for ~$1,500 in parts (see writeup at rennlist.)

I think the ODB1/ODB2 SAI issue can be more problematic depending on which state you live in. There was recently a thread on rennlist where someone purchased a FL car, brought it back to MA and promply failed inspection. If I remember correctly the CEL lamp had either burned out or was removed at some point, so the buyer had no idea what he was in for.

Hope my $.02 helps, take it with a grain of salt and do your research. Don't be in a hurry, plenty of cars out there right now. Being willing to travel or have a car shipped helps widen the scope of the search greatly. I don't want to push rennlist again (very active 993 crowd over there,) but do know that if you're interested in a car that's not local you can ask there and someone will likely check the car out for you, somewhat like a P-PPI. Basically an enthusiast gives the car a true once-over and reports back saving you the hassle of a real PPI if it's not worth it.

Knowing what I know now I would also recommend you have the car checked at a reputable body shop or alignment shop or both, prior to purchase. I wish I had done this myself.

SKhiev · 05-16-2009, 10:43 PM

Hey,

I have a 97 993 Carrera which has 235K miles, it's still running strong. And I do have oil leaks but very minimal. I bought the car at 229K miles from the original owner. The engine is all original and nothing has been done to it. He uses it for his daily driver, til I pick it up and baby it again. I am sure I have to rebuild it sooner or later. But for now I just use it for the weekend and garage during the week. If you see the car you wouldn't expected to be that high of a mileages. It's perfect on the inside and outside, but every car is different I suppose.

aigel · aigel's Garage

Grant,

Any use for the 4wd (snow)? If not, I'd stick with the 2wd models. IMHO the 993 is very similar to the 3.2 Carrera in terms of engine life and valve guide wear. There seem to be some that needed guides fairly early and then there is others that go to 200k before they need work.

I would not over-analyze this. If the PPI comes back clean, go in with a low enough offer where you have some spare change for any future troubles. At that mileage, the car should come with a discount (from a 80k mile car) anyway.

Good Luck!

George

Tishabet · 05-17-2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aigel

Grant,

Any use for the 4wd (snow)? If not, I'd stick with the 2wd models. IMHO the 993 is very similar to the 3.2 Carrera in terms of engine life and valve guide wear. There seem to be some that needed guides fairly early and then there is others that go to 200k before they need work.

I would not over-analyze this. If the PPI comes back clean, go in with a low enough offer where you have some spare change for any future troubles. At that mileage, the car should come with a discount (from a 80k mile car) anyway.

Well, I do like the idea of 4wd since this car would in fact be a year-round DD. That being said, my current year round DD is a RWD 944... in the 7 years I've been driving it I haven't gotten stuck, but I have come very close! I've heard enough about the 964 C4 to decide to avoid them (although I would certainly consider a 964 C2), but for the 993 series the C4 is in fact a desirable model for me... I've been keeping an eye out for the right 993 C4 for about 2 years.

I asked the current owner about oil consumption, he stated that he is giving it around 1 qt for every 1,500 miles. At this point I'm going to move forward with the PPI and see what it says... I admit that I may be over-analyzing, and should just pony up the cash for the PPI rather than going over "what if" scenarios in my head.

FYI, the owner is asking $18k.

aigel · aigel's Garage

I don't like the fact the guy admits to a quart every 1500. That's like the doctor asking a patient how much they drink or smoke. The patient will always admit about half the true amount.

If you correct by 50%, you'll be close to top end rebuild territory.

If the guy is local, tell him you want to see the car cold start. Have him leave it parked for 24 hours. Check that it is cold before he cranks it and check the exhaust. If there is any serious valve guide wear, there will be plenty of smoke for the first minute or so. If it does not smoke a lot (it may a little - 15s or so of light smoking is ok at that mileage), go for the PPI and buy the car if it checks out. $18k is a great deal. There are people buying questionable G50 3.2 carreras for more than that.

George

boeing 717 · 05-21-2009, 04:45 AM

I have a 1991 964 turbo with 141,000 miles on it. Never been overhauled and runs perfect and pulls like a freight train.

cgfen · 05-27-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flskala

and personally, I wouldn't take any advice from anybody that has spent 220k miles of their life in a Hyundai Excel (that posts on Porsche website)...

LOL !

cheers

Craig

g_vaxed · 05-28-2009, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noah

Do you know the difference between anecdote and data? Just because you own one of the few 993's that didn't need valve guides doesn't mean that valve guides aren't a serious problem.

Anecdote. Data. There's an important difference.

Yes, actually I do... few, huh ?

I called Porsche's HQ's and have requested the valve guide failure rates on 95-98 993's. The data was not immediately available, but they said they would check on it and get back to me. I will report the outcome if they do contact me.

Cooper911SC · 06-03-2009, 06:41 PM

Here's another Data point. We bought our '95 Tip with just over 100K 3 years ago. It now has 161K. The car is a daily driver and see about 16-17K per year!

It has been totally reliable. Oil consumption is about 1qt per 2500 miles. It has needed an alternator and some AC work. I also recently replaced the shocks and installed new control arm bushings. Otherwise basic maint. Plugs, wires, caps, rotors, fuel filter, trans service, etc. I have done valve cover gaskets and the chain housing cover gaskets. (PITA)

These cars will need some maintainance, but they are reliable.

My $.02

Cooper