Project 964; Questions time

[ShootingStar]

I'm in the process of tracking down a 964 for a possible one year to two year, or however long it takes me to build it, project. I'll be doing a majority of the work myself, in my garage, and taking my time with it. Read, I'm in no hurry to get this project done once it's started. It's going to be used as a means to exercise my mind and test my skills.

I figured I would start a thread here, so I can pose questions every so often, either to get some food for thought or a heavy dose of reality.

The major problem for myself at the moment is I can find no definitive answer to my question, neither here or on other boards. And it is...

If I swap the 993 VarioRam motor into a 964 chassis and planned to do a full standalone ECU, Motec/Haltech/etc, would I still keep the DME or would that be going out the door with the stock ECU?

Please pardon my lack of knowledge toward this, I'm here to learn as much as I can before I throw myself into this project.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by ShootingStar

I'm in the process of tracking down a 964 for a possible one year to two year, or however long it takes me to build it, project. I'll be doing a majority of the work myself, in my garage, and taking my time with it. Read, I'm in no hurry to get this project done once it's started. It's going to be used as a means to exercise my mind and test my skills.

I figured I would start a thread here, so I can pose questions every so often, either to get some food for thought or a heavy dose of reality.

The major problem for myself at the moment is I can find no definitive answer to my question, neither here or on other boards. And it is...

If I swap the 993 VarioRam motor into a 964 chassis and planned to do a full standalone ECU, Motec/Haltech/etc, would I still keep the DME or would that be going out the door with the stock ECU?

Please pardon my lack of knowledge toward this, I'm here to learn as much as I can before I throw myself into this project.

w/ Motec or similar the stock Motronic DME is discarded.

If you want to swap in a 993vram keep the harness from the engine to the DME and purchase a conversion harness to connect to the Motec from Geoffrey Ring or Colin Belton

I'd want to put a nicely geared 6 spd in there too.

[ShootingStar]

Quote de ShootingStar

I'm in the process of tracking down a 964 for a possible one year to two year, or however long it takes me to build it, project. I'll be doing a majority of the work myself, in my garage, and taking my time with it. Read, I'm in no hurry to get this project done once it's started. It's going to be used as a means to exercise my mind and test my skills.



I figured I would start a thread here, so I can pose questions every so often, either to get some food for thought or a heavy dose of reality.



The major problem for myself at the moment is I can find no definitive answer to my question, neither here or on other boards. And it is...



If I swap the 993 VarioRam motor into a 964 chassis and planned to do a full standalone ECU, Motec/Haltech/etc, would I still keep the DME or would that be going out the door with the stock ECU?



Please pardon my lack of knowledge toward this, I'm here to learn as much as I can before I throw myself into this project.

w/ Motec or similar the stock Motronic DME is discarded.



If you want to swap in a 993vram keep the harness from the engine to the DME and purchase a conversion harness to connect to the Motec from Geoffrey Ring or Colin Belton



I'd want to put a nicely geared 6 spd in there too.

The idea was 993 VRam plus six speed.

I haven't quite figured out what gearing I'd like. I'm not going for some nasty big boy car. I'm planning to building a car that will see a lot of Friday night through Sunday afternoon miles and maybe a few track days here and there.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by ShootingStar

The idea was 993 VRam plus six speed.

I haven't quite figured out what gearing I'd like. I'm not going for some nasty big boy car. I'm planning to building a car that will see a lot of Friday night through Sunday afternoon miles and maybe a few track days here and there.

The problem w/ stock US 993 gearing is that 1st is too low and 6 is too high, you can livw w/ 1st but 6 is almost useless, a regeared trans is so much more useable and enjoyable.
just for example

here's a comparison of a couple of 964 5spds, /5 & /10, some 993 6 speeds /20./21, /30, /32 and some regears
notice that the 5 speeds are further left(bad for sporting purposes) the 993s are in the middle, /20 is stock US 993, /30 is 993Cup/RSR, /32 is 993RS/CS, any of the /3x are going to be great street/track transmissions, the /21 is a street trans geared pretty much like a 993RS /31 also good, the regears are liveable on the street


another comparison of stock US 993 /20 w/ a RSR/Cup race trans /30, here higher is more thrust

[wesleyc]

Great info bill. I wondered why my 95 felt like granny gear in 1st and only pulled 28k rpms at 80 mph ?

[ShootingStar]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

The problem w/ stock US 993 gearing is that 1st is too low and 6 is too high, you can livw w/ 1st but 6 is almost useless, a regeared trans is so much more useable and enjoyable.
just for example

here's a comparison of a couple of 964 5spds, /5 & /10, some 993 6 speeds /20./21, /30, /32 and some regears
notice that the 5 speeds are further left(bad for sporting purposes) the 993s are in the middle, /20 is stock US 993, /30 is 993Cup/RSR, /32 is 993RS/CS, any of the /3x are going to be great street/track transmissions, the /21 is a street trans geared pretty much like a 993RS /31 also good, the regears are liveable on the street

another comparison of stock US 993 /20 w/ a RSR/Cup race trans /30, here higher is more thrust

Well, this completely opens my eyes. Thank you for the information Bill.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

The problem w/ stock US 993 gearing is that 1st is too low and 6 is too high, you can livw w/ 1st but 6 is almost useless, a regeared trans is so much more useable and enjoyable.
just for example

here's a comparison of a couple of 964 5spds, /5 & /10, some 993 6 speeds /20./21, /30, /32 and some regears
notice that the 5 speeds are further left(bad for sporting purposes) the 993s are in the middle, /20 is stock US 993, /30 is 993Cup/RSR, /32 is 993RS/CS, any of the /3x are going to be great street/track transmissions, the /21 is a street trans geared pretty much like a 993RS /31 also good, the regears are liveable on the street

another comparison of stock US 993 /20 w/ a RSR/Cup race trans /30, here higher is more thrust

Bill I am considering a similar project to the OP

I had a friend who had a nearly identical set up to my C2 except he had a 993 G50/20 in his vs my G50/05. We found I was a bit faster on most tracks due to less shifting I needed to do on some sections although neither was ideal.

I plan on building a new track car. Right now I have my eye on a gutted 993 with varioram engine or a 964 C4 requiring massive amounts of work. I plan on converting it to a 3.8 RS rwd clone if I go this direction. In either case I plan on using the 993 varioram engine and possibly a G50/20 tranny. Ideally I would like to gear the G50/20 to 30 cup setup. However we know the expense involved with gears and I was curious of your thoughts on using the 8:32 with the G50/20 instead of the extreme expense of doing the gears initially. I would rather put the money into other things right now or am I wasting my time.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

Bill I am considering a similar project to the OP

I had a friend who had a nearly identical set up to my C2 except he had a 993 G50/20 in his vs my G50/05. We found I was a bit faster on most tracks due to less shifting I needed to do on some sections although neither was ideal.

I plan on building a new track car. Right now I have my eye on a gutted 993 with varioram engine or a 964 C4 requiring massive amounts of work. I plan on converting it to a 3.8 RS rwd clone if I go this direction. In either case I plan on using the 993 varioram engine and possibly a G50/20 tranny. Ideally I would like to gear the G50/20 to 30 cup setup. However we know the expense involved with gears and I was curious of your thoughts on using the 8:32 with the G50/20 instead of the extreme expense of doing the gears initially. I would rather put the money into other things right now or am I wasting my time.

I don't like cwp change, while it makes some things better it makes others much worse

Here's a healthy 3.6 w/ stock /20 and a cwp change to 4, at the top its sort of like a typiczl /20 regear where 5 is moved to 6, but look at 1, it was too low before now it's almost useless


compare that to this where 5 is moved to 6


compare to a /21 and a /32, the /21 was the Row trans for early 993 it still has the too low 1 but the rest of the gears are very similar to those used in the RS /31, the /32 was the RS/CS something like this is what I would look for


the /30 used in the 993Cup and 93RSR is nice but does't need the really short drop into 6

All the above are the same 993 3.6
this is mine, /30 w/ 993 RS engine compared to the original /20 w/ the same engine. the only thing i'd change is to make 6 a tad taller as the tail of 5 drops below the 6 curve. Of couse if the rev limit or torque curve is changed the gearing would need to be changed too.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

I don't like cwp change, while it makes some things better it makes others much worse

Here's a healthy 3.6 w/ stock /20 and a cwp change to 4, at the top its sort of like a typiczl /20 regear where 5 is moved to 6, but look at 1, it was too low before now it's almost useless



the /30 used in the 993Cup and 93RSR is nice but does't need the really short drop into 6

All the above are the same 993 3.6
this is mine, /30 w/ 993 RS engine compared to the original /20 w/ the same engine. the only thing i'd change is to make 6 a tad taller as the tail of 5 drops below the 6 curve. Of couse if the rev limit or torque curve is changed the gearing would need to be changed too.

A lot of food for thought. Many things to consider. This will come in handy in the upcoming months. Amazing how quickly it all adds up.

As always many thanks.

[ShootingStar]

Now what about for a clutch and flywheel combo? A little pep would be nice, light and easy to rev.

Is it best to go with an OEM clutch or something aftermarket?

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by ShootingStar

Now what about for a clutch and flywheel combo? A little pep would be nice, light and easy to rev.

Is it best to go with an OEM clutch or something aftermarket?

The stock dual mass flywheel and accompanying clutch is very heavy, most of us switch to the 964RS set up, which continues to be used right up through the GT3s

you need the clutch, PP, bolts, t/o bearing and guide tube these are usually available as a complete package,

be sure to get 964RS or 993RS/CS package

[ShootingStar]

If I wanted to do a center wiper conversion. I know there's some fabrication involved, but would be it too much to do?

I've always liked the sight of a center wiper and how it divides the windshield.

[ShootingStar]

My next question is about fitting the turbo fenders and quarters on the NA body. With the stock suspension geometry and components, would I be able to fit 9 inch wide wheels in the front and 11 inch wide wheels in the back?

Secondly, if I'd like to fit some aftermarket brakes on it, would I have to experiment with the diameters between 17s and 18s per brake sizing?

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by ShootingStar

My next question is about fitting the turbo fenders and quarters on the NA body. With the stock suspension geometry and components, would I be able to fit 9 inch wide wheels in the front and 11 inch wide wheels in the back?

Secondly, if I'd like to fit some aftermarket brakes on it, would I have to experiment with the diameters between 17s and 18s per brake sizing?

Bill has many threads on brakes he has supplied everything needed. The big reds will fit 17's. How much extra are you looking for. If you go with wheels and rubber that wide are you planning on the HP to go along with it?

[ShootingStar]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

Bill has many threads on brakes he has supplied everything needed. The big reds will fit 17's. How much extra are you looking for. If you go with wheels and rubber that wide are you planning on the HP to go along with it?

Planning on a 3.8L from the 3.6L 993 motor, not re-inventing the wheel, but hoping for 400ish, maybe 450ish at the limit. A good reliable number, I don't want to be risking the motor to be tossing it's pretty little guts out every time I go for a drive. Been there, done that, and never want to do that again.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by ShootingStar

Planning on a 3.8L from the 3.6L 993 motor, not re-inventing the wheel, but hoping for 400ish, maybe 450ish at the limit. A good reliable number, I don't want to be risking the motor to be tossing it's pretty little guts out every time I go for a drive. Been there, done that, and never want to do that again.

Hope you have a big budget, that is going to be an expensive motor.

My advice is to work w/ a reputable and experienced builder that has done that type of motor before.

Alternatively get a 996/997/991 GT3 where getting that kind of power is a lot easier

[ShootingStar]

I don't plan to buy everything at once, when I find the right 964 that I want, which has been my biggest issue at the moment, is when the project will begin. If this whole plan takes me at least a year, that's fine, two? That's fine too.

Apart from the machining, some of the painting, and some of the interior work, I plan on doing everything myself. I enjoy a challenge and I'm pretty much challenging myself with this project. I've worked on a lot of other people's cars over the years and with that knowledge, I want to test myself.

If I fail, I fail, and I'll hand over the reigns to someone with more experience to finish what I started, but with that, I'll be there every step of the way to see my faults and learn from my mistakes.