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Tim....stop you are making my head hurt

really very interesting stuff...keep it coming
Old 03-17-2008, 06:44 PM
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haha, that's it. I use that at parties to sound smart, then it's all over after that
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Old 03-17-2008, 07:17 PM
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All other things being equal, the 914 is the better autoXer. Track car, too. (Just ask the guys who run the Klub Sport Challenge.)

But all other things are almost never equal. The 911 came stock with engines up through 3.6 liters--or 3.8 if you count the race cars. The 914 came stock with a 1.7, 1.8, or 2.0 four-banger, or the weakest 2.0 that Porsche ever built.

It's a lot easier to bolt a larger later motor into an earlier 911 than to bolt any Six into a 914-4. The transmission issues are easier to deal with than the 914s. Cooling is somewhat better. And so on and so forth. All of which adds up to there being more work to do many of the equivalent modifications (particularly power mods!) to a 914.

Then there's the minor detail of the factory engineering and building the 996 and 997 race cars, which have a whole lot that the 914 simply cannot match. They may have a tough time beating a really well set up and driven 914 autoXing, but that's because they are specialized for the Big Track. (BTW, I'd love to see the RS Spyder try a typical autoX some time. I wonder if it would have to back up to make some of our typical corners???)

...Of course, put up a 914 against a maxed-out Lotus Elan, or Super 7 type vehicle, and you may find the 914 down the results a ways. And then run the Lotus against a shifter kart... There's always a vehicle that's "better" than any given vehicle at some task.

--DD
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Old 03-17-2008, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by barney911rs View Post
Paul had wing envy when he was a boy. Look forward to meeting you sometime after I get my house sold and move back to FL.
I need to add another wing to it to really be effective.

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Old 03-18-2008, 04:19 AM
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I dont know? ....any of you 911 guys have a 3.6 liter motor you can loan me for a season to find out if my car is faster?

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Old 03-18-2008, 09:52 AM
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In my 4 years of VAST (insert sarcasm here) auto-x experience with the MetroNY PCA region, the 914's are usually capable of top 10 finishes in a sea of Boxsters, newer 911's..etc. They are very capable cars with good drivers, which there are usually plenty of in attendance. And considering the HP difference, its pretty impressive what they can do.

I also think a worthy selection would be a '88 M030 equipped 924S. Slighty more HP than the pre '87 944's and lighter weight to boot. There are also the M030 968's.
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:16 AM
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The 914's inherent superiority is clearly evident if you read through the rules of the various Porsche racing organizations. 914's are penalized on every front. We must pay points for everything just to get something that will work well on a track, the stuff that 911's, 944's, 928's start out with. Vented brakes, Carbs or tunable FI that will handle a cam, rear springs that actually support the rear of the car, wheels wider than 5.5", etc., etc., etc.
The reason for all of these penalties is fear. The guys that drive 911's generally have more money and they're afraid to get beat by a $3,000.00 car. 914's are a problem that you can't easily spend your way away from.
Flame away!
Old 03-18-2008, 03:00 PM
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Paul, is that yellow thing a chimney?
Old 03-18-2008, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by URY914 View Post
I need to add another wing to it to really be effective.

Paul, are you still running at that dusty a## Zephyrhills airport with the Porsche club? Should come up to Gainesville.

Kevin
Old 03-18-2008, 03:18 PM
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Paul, is that yellow thing a chimney?
no, it is the chute into the food processor.... haven't you ever seen Back to the Future??? He dumps some garbage in, flips the wing over and flies the car home. jeeesh.


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Old 03-18-2008, 03:28 PM
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Everybody is a comedian aren't they.

That picture was taken at the airport south of Brooksville. Pretty decent place.

The yellow scoop is the result of several hundred hours of wind tunnel testing in Zuffenhausen. It not only draws in clean, cool air to the reactor at hyper speed due to the vortex design, it also acts as a dorsal fin to keep the car on line as I reach the speed of sound. Don't you butt wipes know anything???
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Old 03-18-2008, 04:55 PM
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I was thinking of painting my house's chimney yellow. It looks nice, I think I'll do it. Maybe it will make my house faster!
Old 03-19-2008, 12:16 AM
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At a very rudimentary level, four characteristics make a street car capable for the track:
- Power (good)
- Weight (bad)
- Grip (good)
- Drag (bad)

For autocross, power is probably the least important of the three (although torque is critical.) Likewise, aero drag is not much of a factor below 60 MPH.

Grip depends mostly on what has been done to increase wheel width, and tire compund selection.

But oh - what an inherent difference in weight between the 914 and the 911! Granted, weight distribution also plays a part, but we vote for gross weight as the BIG factor favoring the 914.

Ed LoPresti
Old 03-20-2008, 07:04 PM
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The 4cyl 2.0 914 that beat Kinniger and Provasi weighs in the 1850 range with driver and runs on GoodYear slicks and 5 lug Fuchs. 7's and 8's. The 2.0 *maybe* puts out 125hp. I have worked on the car for several years now. It is VERY old school in its setup and approach. SteveN the owner is a VERY good driver with a lot of seat time in 914's.

I would *love* for Mark (or Erik) to chime in and give us the actual 3.6 power numbers and weight of the blue 911. The *claimed* hp in the magazine article is BS I know Mark pretty well. He builds some badass engines for San Diego people!!


B
Old 03-20-2008, 07:16 PM
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What, you've never heard the phrase "magazine horsepower" before?

--DD
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Old 03-21-2008, 06:25 AM
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Dave's right on....you load the magazine up and viola....more BSHP....I'm going to get mine filled up right now
Old 03-21-2008, 09:47 AM
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I'd say which is favored comes down to the course.
When both are built out to the limit I'd say 95% of the time an autocross course is going to favor a 914 over a 911. The 911 puts power down better- both due to weight distribution and suspension geometry, I suspect. This both limits how big a motor you want to put in a 914 and also limits how well you can exploit that power. So faster, flowing courses slightly favor a 911 with lots of power, while tight courses requiring rapid transients heavily favor the 914. So on average the scale is tilted heavily in the 914s favor.

That said, it's easier to make and use big power in a 911, which is part of the reason the average fast 914 AX car doesn't have a big motor. If you can lower polar moment in the 911 and limit your losses in the tight stuff, then press the power advantage elsewhere, it might be possible to build a street driven 911 that could beat the fastest 914s at perhaps 1/2 the events. Maybe more?

-Pete
Old 03-21-2008, 03:09 PM
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Pete, the San Diego Parade course was not a tight and twisting one. It definitely was a large fast course, with pretty good flow. (Not as fast as it looked when walking, but definitely 3rd gear for me!)

--DD
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Old 03-21-2008, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
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Pete, the San Diego Parade course was not a tight and twisting one. It definitely was a large fast course, with pretty good flow. (Not as fast as it looked when walking, but definitely 3rd gear for me!)

--DD
Yes Dave, I agree- that was a fast course that should have favored 911s, or at least been pretty balanced.

I'd just sold my last car an missed getting to parade last year, but a friend went. He was just a few seconds off of TTOD in a 911 despite not being able to grab 2nd for some of the runs; this in a full radio, interior, etc car that was driven to the event. My old car- also full interior, all steel and glass, etc and street driven, was regularly slightly faster than that one, and I'd actually beaten the overall parade winner in it once. Of course that was largely luck and he's destroyed me on other courses, but as I say it comes down to the course. Both my friend's car and my old one are not specialized autocross cars- they are all-rounders with regular gearing, etc. If you were willing to do a more dedicated effort- lightweight panels, glass, optimal gearing, more rubber, etc, there would be lots of time to be found. That's before you get to trailering it and pulling out the glass, etc like the top 914s.

$.02

-Pete
Old 03-21-2008, 06:01 PM
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Ah, yes, those last few seconds.

I have discovered as I continually modify my car in search of that wil O' the wisp
is S**t happens. Unforeseen difficulties arise with more grip (in particular) more power, less weight......the best laid plans need tweaking.

Some tweaks set you back...one was a journey in to wide front tires/wheels....oops.....that cost me a season. Grip became inconsistent due to chassis flex at another point...OK, fixed that..I really need more rear tire....but what I thought would be big enuff (10 inch R35s) isn't and the fenders I installed won't take bigger uns'.

Frankly, when you get there I'll believe you. You'll have a peepot fulla time and money in a 911 that will only be good for one thing.....just my .02.
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