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944 Brake pads - whats best?

Got an early 944 track car..
Looking for thoughts on best pad for a non-street track day car? and If possible, something that doesn't eat rotors.
Thanks in advance.
Old 01-29-2012, 04:26 PM
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This is kind of like asking which oil, everyone has there favorites. I have a 951 with Big Reds and I'm having good luck with pagid orange, from cold to hot they are pretty consistant, maybe slightly grippier when hot. They don't seem to be destroying my rotors. I like them a lot, though I've heard some people don't like them.
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:58 PM
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Never tried Pagids, but i just switched from Hawk DTC-70's to CL Brakes RC6E's. Still getting to know the CL's, but I can tell you they are head and shoulders above the Hawks in every catagory. But because of the way the CL's work, I have to imagine they are one of the most, if not the most, rotor friendly track pad around.

There is no bed-in or pad transfer INTO the rotor face with the CL's. The pad is impregnated with graphite, which floats on the face of the rotor. A couple 45-5mph decell's and you are ready to race.

Check out the reviews and info at Essex - Home page
Old 01-30-2012, 05:27 AM
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Popular choices include Performance Friction PF97's, Hawk HT-10 and DTC 60/70 as well as the above. In many cases the pad selection comes down to cost and personal preference of the torque curve.



Gorilla - There is ALWAYS pad transfer to the rotor face otherwise you couldn't stop at high temps. This is how braking works. Braking does not occur between the disc and pad once hot, but between pad-material bonded to the disc surface and the making/breaking of molecular bonds between the material in the pad and the pad material in the disc itself.

Quote:
There are two basic types of brake pad friction mechanisms: abrasive friction and adherent friction . In general, all pads display a bit of each, with abrasive mechanisms dominating the lower temperature ranges while adherent mechanisms come more into play as pad temperature increases. Both mechanisms allow for friction or the conversion of Kinetic energy to Thermal energy, which is the function of a brake system, by the breaking of molecular bonds in vastly different ways.

The abrasive mechanism generates friction or energy conversion by the mechanical rubbing of the brake pad material directly on the rotor disc. In a crystalline sense, the weaker of the bonds in the two different materials is broken. This obviously results in mechanical wear of both the pad and the rotor. Consequently, both pads and rotors are replaced when they are physically worn to their limit and are too thin to endure further service.

The adherent mechanism is altogether different. In an adherent system, a thin layer of brake pad material actually transfers and sticks (adheres) on to the rotor face. The layer of pad material, once evenly established on the rotor, is what actually rubs on the brake pad. The bonds that are broken, for the conversion of Kinetic to Thermal energy, are formed instantaneously before being broken again. It is this brake pad-on-transferred brake pad material interaction on a molecular level that yields the conversion process.
Read more here: Brake Pad Bed-In
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:19 AM
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Yes, Chris, for other pads, not the CL's. Typical pads need pad transfer to work optimally, like a dragster laying down rubber on the track before a run. CL's don't do that. The CL pad has a crazy amount of friction and the graphite layer then protects the rotor from the pad. Because of this, there is no burnishing and virtually no bedding.

Here. Read about them.

Essex - CL Sintered Compound Data

Essex - CL Sintered Technology FAQ

Last edited by GorillaFoot; 01-30-2012 at 07:54 AM..
Old 01-30-2012, 07:49 AM
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From a link you posted:

"When the pads heat to a certain point, they will deposit a layer material on the face of the rotors, just like other pad types."

Hmmm................

Scott
Old 01-30-2012, 08:54 AM
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Oh, here we go again. Winder following me around the boards... You must be a politician, Winder. Nice partial quote. Here's the rest...

"Because of their higher metal content, CL Sintered Pads don't rely on a pad transfer layer to generate high levels of friction. The only recommended bed-in after install is to do a few moderately hard stops to seat the pads flush with the rotor face."

and...

"That pad transfer layer is extremely thin however, and contains graphite (a lubricant), which protects the rotors from wear. Because of the abrasive nature of the sintered material when cold, that thin transfer layer will quickly be removed from the rotors during any cold brake applications. The transfer layer of CL pads is essentially self-curing, and only develops when required to protect the rotors."

So once again, no burnishing of the rotor. It's more of a protection layer. I didn't make the damn things!
Old 01-30-2012, 09:12 AM
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Chris, I see what you are saying.The difference is, the CL's use the transfer layer only to protect the rotor, not to brake better, like other pads.

The obvious advantages here is the brakes have about as much torque, hot or cold, the rotors last longer, you can switch from a street pad to the track pad very quickly and any brake judder can be cured with a few cold stops. I can tell you from experience the CL's actually work as advertised. I use the RC6E's. Shorter, more consistent decel than the DTC-70's and an endurance pad. That's a winner in my book.
Old 01-30-2012, 09:36 AM
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To the original poster... I am from Milwaukee, and had a 944 there for quite a while.

I strongly suggest you network locally for stuff like this. Wisconsin has several PCA groups, and folks involved with track driving and racing. It should be pretty easy to connect and get suggestions and more from folks right in your area that are familiar with your tracks. Heck, even Kelly Moss in Madison will take your call on this. You know who they are, right?

When I lived in WI with my 944, I was just starting out in AX and track driving. I had driven only one previous event, a PCA DE at Lime Rock Park. I had stock Jurid pads then. I switched to metal masters in WI and drove a bunch of AX at County Stadium, and a DE at Blackhawk. I found the Milwaukee region folks supportive and helpful. That was all back in 1988-1991. I am sure they still have PCA folks in WI that are friendly and supportive and know a few things about brake pads.

The rest of the stuff seems to be posted so that guys can make sure their keyboards still work.

Good Luck.
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:09 PM
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By the way, mine was an '84 944. Great car that got me started down the slippery slope. Kinda wish I still had it... if it were in the same condition now as when I sold it.

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Old 01-30-2012, 04:13 PM
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The only point I'd add to these considerations is that compared to the 951, the n/a is more of a momentum car and therefore I don't 'think' would need such aggressive pads as eg PFC or other similar Carbon metallic pads. My experience with PFCs (01/97) on my 951 has been that they're very good with great initial bite, but when a friend with a n/a asked me if he thought he should try them I felt that they might kill too much speed with the initial application. I'm sure this could be adjusted for of course. This is just my impression of these types of pads. I think you would want a pad that you can modulate a bit more than these, but like Mike says, perhaps check with the guys running in your local region. They're likely to know the tracks best and what pads are the most suitable.
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Old 01-30-2012, 05:39 PM
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Do you guys that race at different tracks use different type pads depending on the type of circuit?
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Old 01-30-2012, 05:46 PM
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No, I always use the same. I don't go to that many tracks.

These cars are not new, although there are many more pad choices now than when I started 25 years ago. However, for most of what we all do on track, a pad is a pad. There is no performance to be lost or gained based on brake pads.

The term "rotor friendly" has little meaning as for the most part, there is a known recipe for a given car in a given area. Once you tap into the age-old brain trust, the pads and rotors become true disposables based on the known good recipe. Of course the recipe takes into account heat.

Even newer cars have known recipes to be found in the local brain trust.

It is fun to talk about all of the techno mumbo jumbo, but most of the stuff gets lost in the noise. So I recommend tapping into the local brain trust and using that as a starting point.

951s are heavier and more powerful than 944s in most configurations used for DE and racing. So the needs are different.

For anyone to give pad advice without knowing about the car and its prep level is... borderline inappropriate. Folks here can do better.

Come on man!
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Old 01-30-2012, 06:02 PM
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Mahler, your take on this is a little confusing. It seems your are saying that local guys know best and giving advice on pad choice is "borderline inappropriate".

How are the local brain trust the best people to go to, when you stated yourself

1- "a pad is a pad"
2- you yourself do not change pads from track to track. I don't know if many people would.
3- you gave your own pad choice- metal masters

How is it inappropriate to give real user experience info to a person that asks for it? Inappropriate would be leaving someone to hang or tell them, as you did, go somewhere else.

That being said, my experience when asking the same question to the folks in my region was virtually the same as this thread. The same drum beat- Pagids, PFC's or Hawks. So your point, in one respect, was made. I chimed in because my pads ARE rotor friendly, which is what he asked for.
Old 01-31-2012, 04:50 AM
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(snipped out some bits of the below)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahler9th View Post
However, for most of what we all do on track, a pad is a pad. There is no performance to be lost or gained based on brake pads.

The term "rotor friendly" has little meaning as for the most part, there is a known recipe for a given car in a given area. Once you tap into the age-old brain trust, the pads and rotors become true disposables based on the known good recipe. Of course the recipe takes into account heat.


For anyone to give pad advice without knowing about the car and its prep level is... borderline inappropriate. Folks here can do better.

Come on man!

Mike,

Seriously? A pad is a pad? So in a given racecar using a street pad that I can buy at Autozone is the same for the most part as an engineered race pad? Of course not. Your comment there is painting with a very broad brush and potentially quite misleading.

The poster asked for some compounds to look at. Are you saying we should have just said "No, sorry, ask one of your buddies" because giving a starting point here was inappropriate? ...but if a pad is just a pad, then, well, it doesn't matter right?

I think what you are getting at is that the recommended pad is appropriate to the car and situation, agreed with that... ...but for most club level guys, the last 10% performance to be gained with that is irrelevant and a few suggestions on starting points on compounds and manufacturers is certainly appropriate.

Chastising us for giving a starting bit of advice is fairly heavy handed. I've seen some pretty opinionated posts from you in these last few weeks. Something about a pot and a kettle comes to mind.
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Old 01-31-2012, 06:19 AM
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Hawk Blues are pretty popular in 944 Spec. I ran a couple of sets of them when I had my 944 but found that they ate up the rotors too quickly. Not everyone had that problem so it may have had something to do with my technique. I don't think the brakes got hot enough to use the Hawk Blues effectively. I switched to PF97's and they were much better for me, good braking with reasonable rotor wear. I got them from OG Racing who was the only shop selling them. OG had them custom made for the 944 pad shape.
Old 01-31-2012, 07:20 AM
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I will be more direct....however, you guys must know that some of what I have been saying is tongue in cheek.

The OP did not give a lot of detail on the car. So I feel it is not possible to give advice. If the 944 weighs 3500 pounds and has a 500 bhp V8 is one thing, if it is stock is another, and if it is in Spec 944 configuration its another. All we know is that its a street/track 944.

I always say that folks should start local for things like this. The problem with the internet is that you get advice from people that don't bother to ask for more details and give more informed recommendations. They wing it, or go off into discussions about pad materials transferring to rotors on 951s or 911s or cup cars that aren't relevant to the OP's question. I started in the PCA in 1987, and have always used and recommended that network as a starting point because it provides a more ready means of interaction and leveraging of the years of experience available with these cars.

What I meant by a pad is just a pad is that once you identify a known good solution for YOUR variables (car, tracks, types of driving, et cetera), there often times is no advantage to deviating to some other whiz bang pad that someone on some forums says "go try." And sometimes these whiz bang things cost a lot more. For example, I am pretty sure that Hawk Blues in my size or much cheaper than Pagids in my size.

I have had a lot of these discussions with a newcomer to Porsche track driving... he posts on these forums. I find myself saying all the time.... "it does not matter, the difference is in the noise." I know it is fun to talk about and even banter about technical theory and this and that. But I wish folks would start out saying, "it depends."

My friend's car is similar to mine. We already know everything there is to know. He is curious about potential performance benefits of much more fancy shock absorbers than what he has. "Theory" tells him that there must be an advantage. I tell him, "Its in the noise." So he contacts a pro racing company in another state. Someone I know and respect.

Well, the contact asks him all kinds of questions about his car and how he uses it. He gets Price Cobb involved (you all know who he is, right?) The answer comes back... "It depends." Look how easy it is to connect with experts, including someone that drove the wheels off of 911 and 962s, et cetera.

I did not recommend metal masters. I said I started with them. I don't know if they even have such a thing any more.

And what about "rotor friendly?" What does that mean? Means different things to different people most likely. In my mind it refers to a brake pad that, when used in a particular application, seems to let the rotors last longer before they need to be replaced, when compared to other pads Whew, that is a mouthful. In my experience, this is only relevant for heavy cars with lots of bhp and big expensive rotors. But it doesn't matter what it means to me, it matters what it means to the OP. So I would ask him before giving him advice. What are his experiences thus far, and what about expectations?

And in the end I'd tell him to go talk to someone in his area with years of 944 experience in all levels of prep. I am sure Chris knows someone like that.

And Chris, I would never chastise you, I have found your posts to have valuable information. Perhaps you can help connect the OP with someone in your area that runs similar tracks and has a lot of experience with 944s.

Ask Scott Winders about big reds, rear sway bars, corner balancing, hawk blues versus anything else, brake fluid, and on and on. The answers are out there. Sometimes on here. But for those with experience and the patience to help folks who are just getting started, we can often have the largest possible impact on the future of our beloved hobby by starting with "it depends." This only 20 years from benefiting from... Depends. (LOL)
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:36 AM
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These forums are for discussion. Not everybody is going to have the right answer. The point of a discussion is to share information and learn. The interwebs provides a good (and, yes, sometimes bad) means of discussing and learning by either sharing experiences or pointing people to someone/somewhere that can give them additional feedback. Telling everyone to cut it out because it's all been done before is silly. The guy asked a question. What's everybody supposed to do? Say "Can't help you. Call a brick and mortar shop."

I'll take a page out of your own book and say "stop it" a-la Da Coach.

BTW the Milwaukee region of PCA is wanting for a little more activity- one DE scheduled this year in August and a pretty sparse calendar. No disrespect intended toward that region. However Chicago PCA is quite active with a ton of social, tech and DE events. You can certainly piggback any of their events to gain some people's collective wisdom & experiences. Great people in that group.

In terms of local contacts, sure, Kelly Moss is the obligatory bigshot in that area. Also consider giving Mark White a call at Accumoto. Nice guy who knows his craft.
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:55 AM
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Mike, I trust you found your keyboard still works. Yet, I find your response disingenuous.

"Depends" in regards to brakes is a really crappy answer. Suspensions are complicated and rely on changing variables. That's why racers change set-ups at the track. But they don't change pads. A driver wants to know his pads. There may be a preference, but certain variables must be met.

Tlechner did not say he was running autocross, he said track. Regardless of cost or whether it is a momentum car, at a minimum, you want to have brakes that will stop your car reliably in the worst of situations. I've seen too many instances with guys running off track due to either fluid failure or insufficient pads for the job. Some of these people could have used unsolicited advice.

So what would you tell him? Depends? Depends on what? Preferences? It does not appear Tlechner has enough experience to have a preference, or else he would not have offered such an open ended question. No, assuming his other braking components are in working order you would tell him to spend money on good, reliable track pads. After that, it's a matter of preference. And in this case, the only preference we are working off of is "rotor friendliness" and we are all on the same page with that definition.

And if you look at the previous posts, you will find people DID temper there responses to one degree or another. No one is saying "These are the best pads, period". We all know preferences differ on this topic.

But stifling a conversation when people could actually learn something new is worse than what we are doing. "Hey, wait until you are AT THE TRACK before you ask about brakes..." or "Ask some else you don't know for their advice". That's better?

Cool your jets, man!

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Old 01-31-2012, 08:13 AM
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You crack me up! I guess it is impossible to run 915 with a 350 bhp engine and Redline transmission lube, lol. (inside joke).

My jets are very cool.

I do not think there is any such thing as a momentum car. We can start another debate on that in another thread...

I did not say he said he was running AX.

I would never say depends as a complete answer. I believe in qualified advice. So I'd first ask him more questions so I could give him advice based on my nearly 25 years of experience, if appropriate including my own experience with a 944 that I drove in stock form on one track near WI and later with various forms of modifications. If I knew someone out in his area that I thought could help, I would recommend them.

I am sure you have your definition of rotor friendliness. Mine differs. Neither matter to me... I think it is what he considers rotor friendly that matters.

I do not consider the old Axis Metal Masters race or track pads. Back in the day they were certainly better than the factory Textar or Jurid pads in many respects, and not as good in other respects. They were certainly less expensive than Kool Karbons (remember those), and the popular Ferodos that were sold by places like Automotion. And with certain variables taken into account, they were fine for a street/track car. While today's market may offer different and substantially more varied choices, the concept of matching the recommended solution to the need still makes sense to me.

My advice is not to wait until you are on track, I never said that. I do not advocate that approach, nor do I take it myself.

By the way, as an aside, I have a copy of Automobile magazine from June 1988... would you like me to scan it and send it to you... Cover says "Is Porsche's New 944 Turbo S better than the old 911 Turbo?"

I will keep this magazine forever.
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