Proper technique when 911/930 oversteers?
 

Ok, everything I have read states that these cars have a propensity to snap oversteer... the 930 especially. I gooled, and still cant find what the proper driver action is should this occur...

Lets say you are driving into a corner at 45 mph... You are starting to accelerate out...

And the rear end starts to slide out...

Whats the correct action to take?

Every thread I have ever seen mentions that you should never lift off mid throttle. Yet, by habit, I gently lifted off the throttle when it happened in the 930 and the car just straightened out (back tired got traction again). It definitely didn't make the situation worse, like I was expecting.

So whats the proper thing to do? I have heard from some that if the back end starts to go out you need to give it lots of gas! Some folks say to not change the position of the gas pedal at all. Some say to gently easy the throttle back...

Is the correct thing do do different based on WHY the back end starting going out?
For example, was it sliding out when gas was applied, vs due to mid corner braking? Do you do the opposite of what caused it?

Is it different if the back end is sliding out if 2 tires had gone off into the dirt (been told NOT to try to get back on the track as it will spin the other way)...

Would appreciate any words of wisdom. When I was doing the HPDE I was so paranoid that I would spin it in every corner that I was going 1/2 the speed of the other novices in the corners...

You're correct in your assessment. It depends!
If you go on power to fast/much you need to ease off, not lift off completely because then you CAN go into another kind of oversteer...

So if you go into a skid, you need to "catch it", much quicker than you would have to in a front engined car, figure out what to do with the throttle. Then wait the skid out and let the car scrub of some speed. When the speed has come down to a level that the grip will support, the car will straighten out and you power on to the next corner.

The thing with the 911 is that you need to catch it fast otherwise it gets out of hand quickly. If you compare it to a Porsche 944, the 944 is almost impossible to spin around. You can drive a 944 looking straight ahead through the side window and just wait for it to come back or just keep provoking it if you like going sideways...

Car setup has a lot to do with it. You may need some adjustments, if the car feels loose.

You may want to participate in some autocrosses. That way you can get familiar with your car's handling in a slower, safer environment.

It is true that if you go into a turn a bit too fast, then lift off, there is a good chance you will spin. In that case it is best to stay steady on the throttle and counter steer until you scrub off speed and regain control, if you can. Now in a turbo, when the boost comes on mid corner, it could also cause oversteer.

I used to instruct in a performance driving school where throttle steering and other car control techniques were practiced. I would recommend this as it is the best way to learn you cars limits in a safe environment.

+1 on autox and similar events. Practice is the key, especially practicing not to panic.... :-)

When you really start to understand your car, you will be able to anticipate the over rotation and counter it as or just before it happens instead of after.

Trailing throttle oversteer is your friend. :)

Get off the throttle mid corner and let the car rotate. As soon as it's pointed in the correct direction get back on the throttle. Derek Bell taught me that trick about 20 years ago.

Just practice it a lot.

Richard Newton
Project 911 is Back

So true. The 911 is inherently unstable. Like throwing a dart backwards, the heavy end wants to be in front.

The best course of action is to be on top of things. There will be times where a bit more throttle will reduce rotation. There will be times where a little opposite lock will be just fine. But you need to catch it early. Slow to react and you are in trouble.

I like to describe driving a 911 at the limit as being similar to balancing a broomstick on your hand. It wants to fall over. But if you are skilled, very tiny corrections can keep it upright virtually still. Less skill or less concentration and large, clumsy corrections are needed. Only practice will help.

Get out to autocrosses or skidpad events so you can get right up to that limit in a safe environment. Spin it so you see what happens when it does go. See when you can lift mid-corner and how much. While they are challenging cars to drive, they are also extremely rewarding to get things right in.

http://image.motortrend.com/f/video/...7-rs-drift.jpg

As a general rule, I lift slightly in higher HP cars (930, GT3, etc..) to help eliminate any power induced wheel spin while counter-steering.

In a 200HP car, I would keep my foot steady and countersteer.

In a 930 with the rather violent tip-in of the turbo you should probably back out slightly. That said, back out too much and you're likely to snap back the other way and have a tank slapper on your hands - I wouldn't want to drive one on the track.

Thanks guys...

So if you are sliding out while accelerating, ease off a bit an dcounter steer... seems to be the consensus, and thats what worked for me too...

Can you confirm that if you are sliding out due to lifting off the throttle mid curve, the solution is to step on the throttle? IE. Do the opposite of what caused it?

Hope its never an issue, as I am driving at 60% or so... I was at the Milwaukee Mile, and all of the high speed corners (its an oval with an infield portion) have cement walls around the perimeter... Zero run off. So, spinning in the sweepers is an absolute no-no... I am driving through these at 40-50 mph or so, which may be too cautious...

There is one corner on the infield that is a hairpin, and thats the one that the end slides out at even if going 30 mph... But thats a "safe" corner with run-off...

Next year plan to do road america... more areas with runoff, so I can be slightly mores aggressive...

When you lift off the gas mid corner, you are transferring weight from the back of the car to the front. At the same time, all the now un-weighted mass is at the back and ready to come around. So, yes "don't lift mid corner" is a 911 trademark. By staying on the power you keep the rear of the car in check. And any counter steering is used to make your corner larger and "catch" the car as you fight for grip.

Remember, no matter the car, you are trying to keep it balanced on 4 tire contact patches, each one about the size of a piece of notebook paper (easy size reference). Learning how to do this takes practice.

Get out to an Autocross or HPDE to learn more and have some fun!

Let's call it transferring load. The mass is still at the back which is why the car wants to come around. You don't want to mash the throttle...you want to be deliberate with the throttle when the car is at the limits of traction.

kb

THIS

While I have become very proud of my ability to save a terribly out of shape 911, I am very embarrassed that I let it get so out of shape in the first place.

What I have noticed about any good 911 driver (the ones that are better than me) is that they are always correcting even though from the passenger seat, the car doesn't seem to be moving around.

What I have learned is that when these cars signal their intention, it is to late.
I'm learning to expect my car to slide everywhere rather than begin caught off guard and having to react.

I'll bet if you watch an in car video of Winders,
he will probably look like a lot of the in car video of Pat long, or Chris Harris in an early short wheelbase 911. At speed, all of the good 911 drivers that I have seen do.

I'll bet if you watch an in car video of Winders,
he will probably look like a lot of the in car video of Pat long, or Chris Harris in an early short wheelbase 911. At speed, all of the good 911 drivers that I have seen do.

But he's FAR uglier....

Wait, you know Scott? ;)

--DD

Details please...

So if you are going through a corner on the throttle a bit and the rear end starts to slide (or you anticipate with your spidey-sense that it might), what the right thing to do?

1) left off the throttle a bit so you regain traction (realizing that in a turbo that might be a big deal) and countersteer
2) DON'T Lift, and counter steer, sliding around a bit (AKA drifting :) )
3) Add more gas, and counter steer...

WAIT JUST A MINUTE!

You are way ahead on the learning curve.
1)Back up to the corner entrance. Unless you are an expert, you should have gotten all your slowing down done in a straight line.

2) When you turn in you should start accelerating towards the apex. Unless your ham fisted with the throttle, the more gas you give it, the more the weight transfers behind the wheels, giving you more traction that allows you to accelerate more. The faster you go the faster you can go at that point.

NOTE:My light switch power band on my peaky 3.0 in my light car will brake the tires loose on tighter corners, if I am cornering and accelerating hard when it hits at 5.5 grand. I just ride it out and don;t do anything with the throttle until it straightens out. In a turbo you may want to square off the corner more so that you are pretty straight by the time the turbo kicks in. I wouldn't want to be learning to catch a turbo induced spin, because backing off the throttle is a terrible idea unless you are already skilled and very gentle.

P.S.
If you are asking how to learn how to drift a 911, that is an entirely different question.

Your question seems like a basic driver/car control issue.
Go to a PCA event and ask an instructor to teach you how to pitch and catch your 911.
Once you know how to do both you can intentionally on slowing pitch the rear end out to rotate the car.
That is how we steer the the 911 with the gas pedal.
If your car is a 930 then catching it may be more difficult.
If you have a 930 try to left foot brake to keep the car loaded while avoiding excessive uncontrolled weight transfer.

I'd avoid trying to learn these skills on high speed tracks.

Plan to do some PCA events next year. So far have done 1 SCCA and have another in a week. Instructors are great, but not porsche 911 experts...

I have some good footage in this video of something I did well

Here is the scenario:

(catching a power on slide when exiting the pits, all hands, no throttle adjustment, no drama)
And not long after, something that I didn't do so well (actually I did it well, just never want to get so behind in a situation that I have to do it again)


Strong midrange but peaky extreme power band from 5.5k to 7k
Snow on the track last fall.

The tank slapper happened when I just momentarily lifted after it started to slide from being too abrupt on the throttle for the conditions. Note I said lifted (the video will automatically rewind and play in slow motion. Listen for the idiot on the throttle).

I tried to keep my foot in in but reflexes kicked in before I overcame them and got back into it.
I recovered by getting back on the gas, but also notice the hands. NOTICE THE HANDS! especially in the slow-mo replay section of the video
nobody is fast enough, so don't rely on reaction time.
I know of no other way when you fall that far behind in your steering (other than this or two feet down and stop)

Instead, follow winder's advice and get ahead in your steering. I got caught off guard and was too slow. I can't imagine ever having reaction time fast enough for that one. Instead, anticipate and react before the car does as per Scott.

Here is the link to the video of where I got it so wrong that I was looking out the back window at one point:mad:

Getting back on the throttle settled the car and me at which point my moment became a non issue.
(Rewind begins after heading up the hill as the music kicks back in)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/837182-video-sending-73-back-crusher.html

This should be used as an instructional video of how NOT to do it I thought the song title was appropriate...

Fun starts at 1:18
and again at 1:50, when "something big is calling me":D


EDIT: TED's slide in the picture in the next post was likely much more deliberate in action rather than my non deliberate reaction in my video.

You need an old 911 expert...finding one is difficult too in the new Porsche PCA environment.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1444924127.jpg

Makes me cringe when driver's get so far behind they intentionally let go of the wheel on corner exit to unwind the wheel.
Lifting hands off the wheel while depending on front caster for self righting or straightening out the car imho is not being in control of the car.
I know of an AX driver that does this routinely.
I prefer to always hold the wheel knowing exactly where my front tires are pointed.

Saw the video, but not sure what you would have done differently? Looks like the back end was coming out, you eased off the throttle and countersteered... Looks like you almost OVER countered and the car was going to spin the other way???

What would you have done differently?

Part of me almost wonders if its the counter steering that gets people in trouble in this scenario? If, after the back end started to slip out you eased off the throttle and LET GO OF THE STEERING WHEEL (GASP!), the car would center itself, no? At least thats what happens when I screw around with the porsche on snow in Wisconsin :).

I don't mean to say "let go" fo the steering wheel and hold your hands up. Rather, just loosen your grip so the steering wheel finds neutral, so the car doesn't spin the other way...

Is that stupid? Silly? Prevents the risk of OVER countersteering and going to spin the otherway when the car finds traction...

Seems to work on ice and snow...

You posted just as I was typing... :). loosely letting go does seem to neutralise the car. Doesn't mean you don't have control, as nothing keeps you from grabbing back on...

EXACTLY!
Thats why I say that this is not the right thing to do.
I wish I had a few laps with you first, but it was a good lesson that I will never forget

I let go of the wheel 3 times in that tank slapper to get it back under control.
It saved my ass when I was on my way around, but I never want to get so far behind in my steering that I ever have to use that technique again.

Its in my arsenal if I need it, but it really is a hail Mary attempt at that stage.
If it was PCA event I would have just put two feet down instead. (In this case there was nobody around me but angry looking armco, so I used this method).

Loosely letting go is just a different degree of the same thing.
Don't get so far behind in the first place.

(Ideally what I would have done is been ready for it to step out, and once stepped out, decisively steered back the other way moments before the first slide ended.)

In TED's picture, I'll bet as per Winders, he was already starting to steer back in to the corner even though the back end hadn't finished its drift.
(Getting ahead of it, the front end is out of play, it dampens the pendulum effect and the tanks slapper doesn't begin)

In my case, the first time it stepped back in I was in deep trouble and way too far behind already and it just got worse from there)

What else I have learned to do differently
Don;t lift in the first place. Just wait and let the traction catch up by keeping the weight off the front wheels and solidly onto the rear.
The other thing that I DID do was pull into the pits and invite a talented old 911 driver show me how he drives beyond the limit

Hopefully this is a good lesson in how NOT to drive a 911. Remember that this all happened not because the rear stepped out, but because I then lifted abruptly
At this point, I'm out of talent and will defer to the experts...
I'm all ears

Practicing on snow is a great way to practice pitch and catch.
But why do you feel the need to let go?

Yes when I first started to track a 911, when I was too far behind on my steering inputs I too tried letting go of the wheel and found it was an improvement.
As an instructor it's unsettling to ride with a student that likes to let go of the wheel.
When you let go of the wheel you disconnect your self from all the feedback your hands receive from holding the wheel.
How can you make brake or throttle corrections when you are not holding the wheel?

Here I am making big corrections on a very hot day with soft melting greasy slicks.
I doubt you can find a place on this video where you would advocate taking your hands off the steering wheel. ;)
https://youtu.be/aB9ubMvxLl8?t=3m47s

Ted, I love listening to the throttle in your video.

It really demonstrates well, how to take the throttle out of play by not messing with it.
In my video I messed with it, which is what got me into all that trouble in the first place.

Your also demonstrates really well how to get ahead in your steering catching things before they happen versus having to react after the drama has begun.

Its guys like you that have taught me to be safer. Nothing about driving a 911 will help you learn this faster than sitting with some one like you.
Thats one of the great things about PCA

So if the back end starts sliding out under acceleration you would recommend keeping the throttle steady and just counter steering?

Geesh... amazing how many corrections you need to make every corner! That steering wheel looks like its constantly flipping right to left and then back again!

Second, what track is that? I didn't see any trees, barriers, armco, etc... Very different from the Milwaukee Mile... Hard to practice on a track with lots of immovable objects ;).

Happened to me to at my latest track day, slow corner and I pushed a little to much:
At 8:40 something https://youtu.be/DZ_1eqCjH8g?t=517

I was experimenting with camera placement so anybody gets sick, I'm really sorry.

I let go, because I'm not fast enough and I have learned to do that on auto-x and slaloms.
On tight 180 degree turns I can brake into the corner to get the tail out, let go of the steering wheel and let the car slide around and when the car points in the right direction grab the wheel and power out. Doesn't work every time, but its fun when it does...

Like you guys would win a beauty contest.... :rolleyes:

Bpu699, Start listening to the throttle at 8:37 of that video. From there you should be able to detect the exact moment that he messed with the throttle, upsetting the car. Tank slapper would have followed if he hadn't let go,
but if he hadn't messed with the throttle he could have rode it out. The trick is to steer back into the corner before the slide comes to an end.
Thats what you see Ted doing with those quick little dabs of the wheel

Chuckwalla just east of Palm Springs Ca.
Bike safe run offs, great 80mph sweepers but short straights last I checked.
That was a Low grip video with wrong compound tires on 106 degree day, the 911 was loose.

Here is decade old video tank slapper driver drove it to the end.
http://vid148.photobucket.com/albums/s39/TedDrake/ChuckwallaFUN_0001.mp4

me in a slapper never let go.
https://youtu.be/AVM8-WhXheY?t=7m45s

A slapper or letting go is a result of something else, something to avoid.

You can say that again!

BPU699, suddenly getting off the throttle gives back traction, with a 911 its just at the wrong end of the car (suddenly the very light front wheels are given weight and massive grip and can go exactly where they are pointing)

Not the best example, but watch this. and imagine it is a 911

Watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MB69sJ-_Gs&t=6m30s
Stop the video at exactly 6:34

The car is now straight.

The car is still carrying a lot of forward momentum.

The front wheels are turned left and not straight ahead.
(Prior to that the wheels were left in relation to the car, but forward in relation to the momentum).

With the front wheels turned left while the car is moving forward, the car quickly turns left. The back end is still trying to go straight down the track.

Spin! (or tank slapper in my case)

People will argue the pont about rotation versus straighten but the reality is the rear follows the front. If the front wheels were corrected a fraction of a second sooner as TED and other experts do, the pendulum effect would be dampened

Ted demonstrated that in his video. The white car in his next video did not

Here is the best I can find to focus on the front wheels and why shifting weight to them at this point is a bad idea (aside from having all that engine out the rear to also have to deal with)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1444931916.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1444931930.jpg

At this point he is already way behind in his steering
(as demonstrated by his rear seen swinging around but his front wheels not yet correcting)
.
.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1444932262.jpg


so, suddenly the car darts left and away we go as he then gets further behind and tries to counter steer right.


.
.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1444932294.jpg

(at this point, he should be quickly going back left again to arrive at the right point for the front wheels when the rear wheels suddenly get there, thus ahead of the next swing)
All letting go of the wheel in a 911 does is react faster than we can, but that does;t work quite the same in all cars. Its not the best idea

So getting ahead in your steering is important, but in a 911 equally important is not to mess with the throttle, lifting and make it worse by giving even more traction to the front and less to the rear..

I found these videos:

Pat long and Chris Harris drive like Ted!

Ted’s video - textbook 911 control
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB9ubMvxLl8&feature=youtu.be&t=3m47s

Someone else sliding an early 911 at goodwood
This video proves why we want to race a SWB Porsche 911 at Goodwood | Total 911

goodwood 911 with Chris Harris sliding
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1SLQsUVb48


Pat Long in a 67 sliding around and even getting in too hot but never letting go of the wheel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm79A8hvDQ8

Maybe this can all be learned at a different frequency of steering on a 356?
goodwood 356 with Chris Harris sliding
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc6qB_Kwn9M

Comparison of Naturally aspirated driving versus turbo
(See 10:00 into this video where Long catches the 935 turbos on corner exit while they tip toe around the corner before pulling the trigger once pointed straight. The unnerving thing about early turbos is that at neutral throttle they can seem to suddenly accelerate depending where you are on boost):D

Pat long in a 75 carrera 3.0 against turbo 935s. starts at 10:00 in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTaJ62xW8Jk

Now for something completely differentWatch the hands:confused:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B7gQFXCVvI

haha, thank you I wish. ;)

Thanks guys, follow up question about taking high speed sweeping turns in a 930...

Let's say you are going 80mph through a consistent radius turn...

If you are traveling a steady 80, and then let off the throttle suddenly, does the car continue its arc, or does it spin out?

I would think that since the suspension is evenly loaded, it wouldn't spin? Correct?

Whereas if you were accelerating, and the rear is squatted down, and you lift off...it spins?