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Brando
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driven97 View Post
Posts like this irk me. There's zero information, so it's not helpful at all. You're just sending our OP off on a wild goose chase towards a poorly defined goal.

Handles better how? Lap time on a race track? On an autocross course? Your personal subjective feel through the canyons? What modifications were made to this 80s 911? Where would OP "read" to make this happen? Does he guess? How much money would he need to spend, would it be as much as selling his car and actually buying a GT3? Oh, and which GT3, a 2004? A 2018 GT3?

Agree!


Just re-read this, and noticed the car is a DD. To me it's critical you focus on making the car within your comfort tolerance range for DD as the first priority. It's possible to make a nice driver and still enjoy the car at the track, it's also very easy to get so focused on lap times that you make the car pretty terrible for anything else. Nobody has ever "won" a open track day.
HA! "I want to win" was a joke, I do however want to "JOY".
My joy is in performance satisfaction and also I realize a racecar isn't for me on the street. I love that my car has a transmission that is relaxed on the freeway 930 4 speed allows 3krpm at 90mph.... the 915/61 was rather pissed at that speed at over 4krpm. Once off the freeway and onto the canyon roads I love cornering hold through a quick corner or long sweeper, I love knowing I can wait to brake and the front will deal with it with composure.
Now the question is how much "JOY" do I want and does it require autocross/track racing tips and tricks? Ya I want to drive a car that classifies as less comfortable but handles well enough that its worth it. I don't want to feel a crack in the road through my kidneys but understand that it will be less comfy.
I understand that I can get away with a little softer springs and up the anti roll bars but don't know how much. I have adjustable bars ready to install so perhaps that's a tuning thing..
"I want to win" to means I want my car to impress me and everyone else in it....without killing me..
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:19 PM
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Pardon me for jumping in , but i'm planning a suspension upgrade to our '88 3.2 911 (headers with dual exh, Steve Wong chip, Koni adjustable yellow shocks) with what may be similar goal. We do DE's and autox and highway cruises. Plans so far include:

Torsion bars 22mm front, 29mm rear, Elephant Racing
Sway bars, Eibach kit, 24 mm front, 25 mm rear
Bushings:
Elephant Monoball trailing arm
Elephant rubber Camber plate (concession to cruising)
Elephant polybronze front bushing set
Of course, alignment and corner weighting

How am i doing so far?
Old 02-26-2018, 07:36 AM
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Sounds like a good start to me. A little on the soft side, but the Konis should be able to handle those torsion bars just fine.

What wheel / tire package?
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Old 02-26-2018, 08:03 AM
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Evans968:

something to think about - -
If you plan to do road/street cruising or touring the swing arm monoball bushing inserts
might be a bit harsh or noisy. We have them in our race car but they are a solid metal
on metal device that connects directly to the car body . . .
But, if you are focused on more Ax/DE/Track time then this might be right for you.

Regards,
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Old 02-26-2018, 09:25 AM
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Proxes RA1 225/55 and 245/45 x 16 on BBS modular 7's and 8's. I have rolled the fender lips a bit, but fronts do rub on inside of wheel wells behind and in front of strut just below of center. Rubbed grooves in well protective coat.

Great info! If I go harder in answer to Matt, what do you recommend? More spring, maybe 23mm/30mm?, Monoballs on both front and back? (my Porsche mechanic's recommendation) Or will either of these, especially monoballs, be too harsh for street as Roy advises. I know that's a subjective judgement. I would tend to be OK with a bit harsh as I've been a sports car guy for a long time (first new car was an MG-C), but would like my wife to join me as well (BTW, she's a sports car gal, loves autox in the 911, but has her limits on noise and harshness. Have used the current Koni's set hard with RA1'sand stock otherwise for a long time and that's been fine. My mechanic says the monoballs make a big difference with precise feel.
Old 02-26-2018, 10:57 AM
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Another data point: The GHL headers and muffler qualify as loud for most normal people, but sounds great to me (and most PCA'ers ... wife's ok with it but just barely.
Old 02-26-2018, 11:00 AM
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I can only answer from my own experience. I went with Delrin a-arm and spring plate bushings, and both locations have developed squeaks. It's annoying, and I plan on disassembling the car to lube them, which is also annoying. Then the grease will wash out and I'll have to do it all over again. So go with polybronze or just sport rubber, IMO.

I also have camber plates with spherical bushings in them. Despite upgrading the sphericals to teflon lined ones, they still squeak from time to time. I'm not willing to give up the extra front camber they provide, though.

In the end, you're not trying to "win" anything so go easy on the compromises. You'll be much happier in the long run.
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Old 02-26-2018, 11:25 AM
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It's good to ask questions, but it's also really unlikely that you're going to design an effective suspension in this manner. Tires are easy, but there are spring, shock and chassis-reinforcement decisions where you have to know how everything is going to interact and then how to tune the whole setup effectively. I've never seen someone just bolt a bunch of stuff on and go out and discover that they just so happened to get everything right. In your shoes, I would find a shop that's had success putting together packages for cars from your 911's era and talk to them about your particular car.

Modern sports cars have loads of power and very sophisticated and capable suspension designs. But modern cars are also really heavy. On some tracks, there is no substitute for low mass.

Obligatory show-off link in defense of older, simpler 911s:




https://jalopnik.com/can-an-old-911-built-in-a-tiny-garage-beat-the-current-1677104954

Full disclosure: the newer 991.2 GT3 is faster than my car, and ANY modern GT3 is a lot more comfortable to drive around town.
Old 02-26-2018, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Olsen View Post
It's good to ask questions, but it's also really unlikely that you're going to design an effective suspension in this manner. Tires are easy, but there are spring, shock and chassis-reinforcement decisions where you have to know how everything is going to interact and then how to tune the whole setup effectively. I've never seen someone just bolt a bunch of stuff on and go out and discover that they just so happened to get everything right. In your shoes, I would find a shop that's had success putting together packages for cars from your 911's era and talk to them about your particular car.

Modern sports cars have loads of power and very sophisticated and capable suspension designs. But modern cars are also really heavy. On some tracks, there is no substitute for low mass.

Obligatory show-off link in defense of older, simpler 911s:




https://jalopnik.com/can-an-old-911-built-in-a-tiny-garage-beat-the-current-1677104954

Full disclosure: the newer 991.2 GT3 is faster than my car, and ANY modern GT3 is a lot more comfortable to drive around town.
Obviously your car has been an inspiration for many as well as me in that you may well daily it. I daily mine (not for this past year because of a need for engine work) and enjoy doing it.
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Old 02-26-2018, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Olsen View Post
It's good to ask questions, but it's also really unlikely that you're going to design an effective suspension in this manner. Tires are easy, but there are spring, shock and chassis-reinforcement decisions where you have to know how everything is going to interact and then how to tune the whole setup effectively. I've never seen someone just bolt a bunch of stuff on and go out and discover that they just so happened to get everything right. In your shoes, I would find a shop that's had success putting together packages for cars from your 911's era and talk to them about your particular car.
Why? We're not reinventing the wheel here, just pick a known good setup off of this forum.

And if not, hey, these are hobby cars. A ton of fun for me has been playing with trying things. I've learned a ton, too.
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Old 02-26-2018, 03:36 PM
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993 rear suspension?
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Old 02-26-2018, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driven97 View Post
Why? We're not reinventing the wheel here, just pick a known good setup off of this forum.

And if not, hey, these are hobby cars. A ton of fun for me has been playing with trying things. I've learned a ton, too.
Sorry. I didn't mean that to sound like the discussion wasn't useful. It is. But I don't think he's going to get to the landing point he talked about with this kind of discussion alone.
Old 02-26-2018, 04:34 PM
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Fair enough. I'm also salty because I've been disappointed by these "experts" before.
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Old 02-26-2018, 06:01 PM
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Go here : https://www.elephantracing.com/911-suspension-builder/

design your package based on goals

- that's a good starting point. It's not cheap - but Chuck does a good job at packaging for the layman...
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:49 AM
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I'm also wanting to get my old 1975 chassis handling alot better, so i'm going to reread alot of what has been mentioned here already.

One thing i'd like to share. A very experienced PCA instructor i've met, had a well sorted 930 that he modified heavily and knew how to wrestle it around the track as good as anyone. He moved to a BMW E46 M3 and saved almost 10 seconds on his lap times. So I think of this everytime I daydream of buying that big ticket suspension piece or modification. Will it be worth it? Maybe a little. But in the end will I be spending $$$$$ on a car that will never handle as good as a more modern car in my hands. Probably.
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Old 03-07-2018, 06:30 AM
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Very good point.
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Turbo powa!
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Old 03-07-2018, 07:29 AM
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Suggestion, based on your location:
Go CRUISE the paddock, ASK questions and watch the air cooled cars race at Las Vegas Speedway on 3-24/25 and then report back with findings.
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Old 03-07-2018, 08:46 AM
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Good points of discussion so far. My thoughts, based solely on my own 930, which was a joy to drive (before my current never-ending overhaul/EFI odyssey):

First and foremost, everyone is absolutely right that in general, you will have a very difficult (read impossible) time equaling modern car performance. (Jack's car, and well, Jack himself, are out of the norm here. The dude's fast, and knows his tracks like he learned how to walk on them. Plus Black Beauty is just about as well sorted as any freakin' IMSA GTD top-runner by now...)

Second, have a thought about what kind of investment you would be comfortable with in this project. You'd be surprised how quickly the "dream setup" changes when you move the $$$ bar from left to right.

Third, if you have agreed to treat your 70's based 911 as a DD, then you are already used to giving up on some basic creature comforts that you can get in any crap-box economy rental car by today's standard. This is good, because it likely means you can tolerate more "inconvenience" than most!

Fourth, and probably most important: Treat whatever you do as a SYSTEM. No arbitrary mixing and matching of stuff. This is how good intentions go sideways and the car handles way worse than before.

All of this aside, here's a shameless promotion of my own setup:

-24/33 torsion bars, appropriately-valved VON shocks (single adjustable), Poly-Bronze, Adjustable Spring Plate w/ Quick Change, De-cambered ball joints, front spindles raised 30mm - All from Chuck at Elephant.
-WEVO camber kind strut tops, SRP anti roll bars (#31F - #27R), WEVO rear anti-roll bar mounts, all from Smart Racing (Now JWE)
-255/315 Nitto NT01 on 9x17, 11.5x17
-Pagid yellows, ATE fluid, cooling ducts up front on stock '87 930 brakes
-Careful tuning (tire pressures, anti roll bar settings, alignment) by me, testing on track days 'till "just right", as in to my liking - which changes time-to-time...

The setup cost around 8K, which is a decent bit of cash (to me, at least). But I love the way the car drives. You can feel 1-2 psi tire pressure differences, easily. It's not too stiff to me, just really direct and eager in its demeanor. And it' hasn't been slow relative to others in my instructor group, modern as well as old cars. But again, relative. My buddy Tony in his modern day RS is way quicker, as he should be.

Good luck, and keep doing research before you buy stuff. Would also be good to get rides from people in track-oriented setups to see how stiff/uncompromising they are to you.
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Last edited by Garen; 03-07-2018 at 03:29 PM..
Old 03-07-2018, 12:43 PM
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Great points!
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Turbo powa!
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garen View Post

All of this aside, here's a shameless promotion of my own setup:

-24/33 torsion bars, appropriately-valved VON shocks (single adjustable), Poly-Bronze, Adjustable Spring Plate w/ Quick Change, De-cambered ball joints, front spindles raised 30mm - All from Chuck at Elephant.
-WEVO camber kind strut tops, SRP anti roll bars (#31F - #27R), WEVO rear anti-roll bar mounts, all from Smart Racing (Now JWE)
-
This the THE set-up for TB Carreras. Mine is nearly identical, I'm just running 23/33 (non-turbo), full monoball and G50 spring plates. There's another 8 or so Spec Carreras in POC running basically same as well.

This is the proven set-up for a mean racing machine.
Old 03-08-2018, 03:09 PM
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