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Multiple Cylinder Misfires

Has anyone experienced a very poorly running engine with a pronounced ticking sound and difficulty revving? The computer readout indicates random cylinder misfires in cylinders 3 and 8. I'm thinking that the issue may be the ignition coils for 3 and 8 but I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts. I can provide fault codes from the computer readout if that helps.

The vehicle is a 2004 Cayenne S with 120000 Km on the Odometer.

Best regards,

J
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:15 PM
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When were the sparkplugs last changed? ...I would guess plugs and ignition coils.
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Old 02-25-2010, 08:07 AM
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P0303 and P0308?

Most common cause is cracked ignition coil packs. To check, remove the 3 and 8 coil packs and move them to another cylinder. If the misfire codes follow to the next cylinder, then its the packs(make sure you clear the old codes first of course). Could also be plugs if they are older than 60K miles.

Ticking noise could also be sticking lifters that can cause misfires. Was the oil recently changed? I've seen this happen to cars that don't get the oil changed enough, and then when you do change it, you get misfires soon after.
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Last edited by eric523; 02-25-2010 at 03:09 PM..
Old 02-25-2010, 03:01 PM
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island911 and eric523, thanks a lot for your feedback!

The coil packs and or plugs are what I suspect. The vehicle returned quite a few codes;

532 - Power supply short to ground or positive
907 - Load management operate on vehicle / DME control module present
668 - Vehicle voltage terminal 30
87 - Terminal 30 start enable
PO346 - Camshaft Position Sensor A / Circuit Bank 2 Present
PO300 - Random Multiple Cylinder Misfire
PO303 - Cylinder 3 misfire detected
PO308 - Cylinder 8 misfire detected

The oil is incredibly dirty and was low when the vehicle came in. It starts intermittently and runs very rough when it does start. It almost sounds like a diesel when it is running. I'll do as you suggest and clear the codes, then move the coil packs from 3 and 8 to other cylinders, fire up the engine and see if the codes appear on the new cylinders. I guess I will also see whether the other codes come back as well and dig into those at that time.

The garage where I work is completely snowed in so I'll be back at it next weekend. I'll let you guys know how it goes. If you have any thoughts regarding the other error codes please let me know.

Thanks!

J
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:50 PM
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Its most likely plugs and coils, i just changed mine after the same symptoms and it runs great now.
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Old 02-26-2010, 06:58 AM
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The camshaft position sensor codes comes up when the oil is very dirty sometimes. I would perform an oil change and use .5 quart of ATF(for detergent properties) in the oil, run it for a 500 miles and then change the oil again. This should help clean out some of the crud in there.

20k mile oil change intervals are very optimistic imo, I recommend changing it every 7-10k. Customers that do so have not had any issues. And on about 10 Cayenne's that I've seen using the 20k, we get the random misfires and camshaft codes. The worst is when you change oil on a car like that and it will start misfiring as soon as you get fresh oil in it, and the customer is like what the hell did you do to my car?! But after some addition of ATF and a follow up oil change, the misfires and codes go away.

As well as looking into the coil packs.
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Last edited by eric523; 02-26-2010 at 07:43 AM..
Old 02-26-2010, 07:35 AM
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Eric,

Thanks for the tip on the ATF additive. What type do you use along with the oil? I'll likely use a Mobil 1 oil compatible with the cold temps here and if you can recommend a specific type of additive that will help.

I think I'm going to recommend a full replacement of the coil packs and plugs to make sure that the engine is taken care of right. I'd hate to see the thing go out the door and then come back in a few thousand K's with another cracked coil pack.

Now I can't wait to get into the garage and get the Cayenne running nicely :-)

Thanks again for the advice!

J
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Old 02-26-2010, 10:45 AM
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Sure no problem. This week has seemed like "Cayenne week" here at my shop! Had 6 of them in for various stuff from broken plastic coolant tubes to coil pack misfires.

Any basic off-the-shelf dexron/mercon atf should work just fine. No need for special Porsche stuff.

I would recommend all 8 coil packs as well, save them a trip back for the rest of them.
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Old 02-26-2010, 10:59 AM
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OK, I think I'm set to take care of the issue. Hopefully the 3 feet of snow in front of the garage is melted off by next weekend so I can get down to business :-)

I'll let you know how it turns out and if there are any other issues I'll be in need of more advice for sure.

Have a great weekend!

Jeremy
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:56 AM
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Hi Eric,

I have one more question for you. Do you think any of the codes I mentioned above might be the cause of the random no start condition? Sometimes it starts, sometimes it doesn't. Or perhaps the dirty oil and misfiring issue might be the cause. Please let me know what you think.

Thanks in advance!

J
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by targamaniac View Post
... The vehicle returned quite a few codes;

532 - Power supply short to ground or positive
907 - Load management operate on vehicle / DME control module present
668 - Vehicle voltage terminal 30
87 - Terminal 30 start enable
PO346 - Camshaft Position Sensor A / Circuit Bank 2 Present
PO300 - Random Multiple Cylinder Misfire
PO303 - Cylinder 3 misfire detected
PO308 - Cylinder 8 misfire detected
...
Yikes! That's messed up. Sounds to me like a major power connection is bad. ...which I can imagine would cause all sorts of faults.

I don't know where "voltage terminal 30" is, but I would start looking there.
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by targamaniac View Post
Hi Eric,

I have one more question for you. Do you think any of the codes I mentioned above might be the cause of the random no start condition? Sometimes it starts, sometimes it doesn't. Or perhaps the dirty oil and misfiring issue might be the cause. Please let me know what you think.

Thanks in advance!

J
I can't say for sure, but it could be related. I have not experienced any no-start issues related to wiring in the 6 years we've been working on them. The only trouble I've had with no-start is after fill-up because of a faulty purge valve in the evap system.

With those wiring codes, I would check major ground wires, make sure the battery is correct size and charge, and ask if the car has ever been in a major accident where wiring harnesses may have been cut or modified to start.

If they persist, let me know and I'll try and get the diagnostic sheets for you. They have the exact pin on the fuse box to check voltage at certain rpms etc. Then you can track that stuff down better, just hope you dont have to.
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Last edited by eric523; 03-02-2010 at 01:32 PM..
Old 03-02-2010, 01:12 PM
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Cool, thanks much for the feedback. I'll start with the fluid and coil pack changeover and then check all the ground points and the battery. I'll hopefully get some wrench time on Saturday if the owner gets off his butt and approves the work :-)

Have a great weekend!

J
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:46 AM
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So the Cayenne's owner finally decided to approve the work on his car but he only approved the replacement of 2 coil packs and all the plugs as well as an oil change. The first bit of weirdness is that although the owner stated that he had a 2004 the service manuals identify it as a 2003 or older vehicle. The engine type is completely different than the 2004 and newer models.. Once I got over that rough patch changing the oil out was a cinch and I refilled with Mobil 1 and a half liter of Shell Dexron AT Fluid as recommended. The oil was black as tar and sludgey as hell. Kind of like extra chocolately chocolate milk. With that out of the way I pulled all the coil packs and plugs. The plugs were barbecued and very likely the original set. I put in all new Bosch plugs, swapped out coil packs 3 and 8, and put the whole thing back together.

I was hoping for great results but the engine still sounds like a diesel and runs very rough. I connected the durametric, cleared all codes in the Motronic and tested the engine. No cylinder misfire codes reappeared. The only code that came back was the Camshaft Position sensor code PO346. I'm hoping that this error code will dissappear as a result of the cleaning action of the new oil in the engine but I'll have to monitor it.

Is the next step to replace all of the coil packs? Please let me know what you think.

Also, I did find one odd thing. When I pulled the number 5 plug I found that there was quite a bit of oil pooled in the plug well. I cleaned it out with a liberal spraying of Brake and Part cleaner and allow it to dry. But I do wonder where that oil is coming from. Have you ever seen anything like that?

J
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Old 03-13-2010, 09:44 PM
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sounds to me like you have a bad cam position sensor does the fault say which bank the fault is on?
there are two different faults that i have seen pertaining to the cams in cayenne engines one is for that cm adjusters and one is for the position sensors. if you have a fault for the position sensor then i would assume that your sensor is faulty. i have seen more than a couple of these sensors fo bad with age. the rough running your describing is a symptom of a malfunctioning cam position sensor as well.
Old 03-14-2010, 10:57 AM
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Hi Emery,

The full error readout is PO346 - Camshaft Position Sensor A / Circuit Bank 2 Present. I'm going to look up the fix for this now. Have you ever replaced one of these sensors?
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Old 03-14-2010, 06:19 PM
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yeah i've done 3 of these sensors. both bank one and two.
Old 03-14-2010, 07:02 PM
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Hi Emery,

I have a pretty comprehensive set of PDF manuals for the Cayenne but I cannot find the placement of the bank 1 and 2 sensors or the replacement procedure. Would you be able to share the procedure for this repair? I'm assuming that bank 2 is for cylinders 5-8?

Your help will be very much appreciated!

J
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:11 PM
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yeah bank two is 5-8. the sensor is in the valve cover just under the secondary air pump for that bank. it has a three wire plug with one 6mm allen bolt holding it in.
Old 03-14-2010, 07:49 PM
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Here's a pic of the secondary air pump. AM I looking underneath the pump (red arrow), to the right of the pump (yellow arrow) or somewhere else?

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Old 03-15-2010, 06:47 AM
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Old 03-15-2010, 06:47 AM
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