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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS935 View Post
Maybe thatís why itís a must have for me, Iím not flipping 20k used cars, but collecting much rarer and more expensive models. There are fewer buyers up there, and their expectations are much higher, regardless of the carís implied value to its asking price.
Well then, although I do not have any of mine actively for sale now, maybe I'll meet you some day ( I'm not Methuselah ), or maybe we have already met without an intro? My 930's do attend lots of Vintage and Porsche DE and other Porsche functions if you go to those in this area.
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Old 09-09-2018, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by voitureltd View Post
Well then, although I do not have any of mine actively for sale now, maybe I'll meet you some day ( I'm not Methuselah ), or maybe we have already met without an intro? My 930's do attend lots of Vintage and Porsche DE and other Porsche functions if you go to those in this area.
I attended a few events in the Chicagoland area many years ago, Iíd say around 2003-4. I got bored of those quickly and stopped going. Maybe we bumped into each other back then if you ever crossed the border for an event or two.
Old 09-09-2018, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Unobtanium-inc View Post
I test drove the car and have to say it was underwhelming, sure it was quick but you lost almost all the animal aspect of the air cooled cars.
What animal aspect? You mean like the Model T ? Underwhelmed? A 356 has 59hp. I think you can bicycle faster than that.

There's nothing about the 356 that is appealing to anyone I know. Looks like a Beetle, sounds like a Beetle.
Except the Beetle looks better, since the tires actually come out to flush the width of the body panels.

First time I rode in a 996, my face was melted off. Insane car that runs circles around SC/Carrera.
Groupthink and Brainwashing is strong in the car culture.
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Old 09-09-2018, 06:38 AM
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Haha thats funny .. i never like the 356 either...
My Bosch E-bike has 75nm of torque ... just saying..

The 993 felt slow and sloppy once i starting driving the 996 has a everyday driver too
and on the track a stock 996 is so much faster than even the most hotroded 993 RS engine in gutted shell..
Old 09-09-2018, 07:18 AM
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There's nothing about the 356 that is appealing to anyone I know. Looks like a Beetle, sounds like a Beetle.
Except the Beetle looks better, since the tires actually come out to flush the width of the body panels.
I don't get either. It's always been a VW with a Porsche crest on it to me. The huge sums of money being paid for many of these cars with absolutely no performance aspects whatsoever is mind boggling. They've never had the performance synonymous with the Porsche name, and I think they're just as ugly today as when I first laid eyes on one.

Kudos to the guys that curated them and made a bunch of money doing it, but it's just a smushed down Beetle to me. And I really hate the Beetle. Which is probably why when I see a Beetle I step on it and smush it. Lol
Old 09-09-2018, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by sugarwood View Post
What animal aspect? You mean like the Model T ? Underwhelmed? A 356 has 59hp. I think you can bicycle faster than that.

There's nothing about the 356 that is appealing to anyone I know. Looks like a Beetle, sounds like a Beetle.
Except the Beetle looks better, since the tires actually come out to flush the width of the body panels.

First time I rode in a 996, my face was melted off. Insane car that runs circles around SC/Carrera.
Groupthink and Brainwashing is strong in the car culture.

I owned a '62 356B back in highschool (that had no floor), but also owned a '55, '56, and '57 Oval window bugs as well. The last bug I owned (the '55) was much faster than the 356 - it had a 1776 in it. It also handled better because it was lowered. Now I am over them. Why? Because they are freaking old cars. Ooooooooold cars. And they drive like them. And smell like them. They are cool. They are fun. But at some point you get over it. I grew up in a VW family. Everyone had them. Its were I learned the hobby. But as time went on, I appreciated newer stuff. Just like I appreciate the '75S I have - that has it all over any longhood, feels better balanced, and well, not as old.

I have little experience with a 996. I have been in them, driven them. I thought they were as cool as my Audi TT (and oh, that's right, the Audi TT is just a smashed-down New Beetle). That's about it. They are fun. Better than a Honda.
Old 09-09-2018, 07:39 AM
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My first car was a 1972 beetle. I guess thatís where I developed my love for the smell of an air cooled engine. I still kick around the idea of getting another old bug, theyíre fun cars. Maybe once I get my 911 completely sorted...
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Old 09-09-2018, 08:20 AM
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Those poo pooing the lowly 356 appear to know little to nothing about Porsche's early motorsports history. In the 50s Porsche was known as a giant killer, taking on the likes of Ferrari quite successfully in certain venues. 356 variants won 4 Targa Florios outright. The Carrera got it's name from the Mexican Carrera Panamericana. They were low powered, but to thumb your nose at the chassis is just ignorance.

I do agree with the sentiment that now it's just an old car. But respect is due to the thing. It was the cutting edge of automotive engineering in it's day and created all of this marque that we now enjoy.
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Old 09-09-2018, 09:01 AM
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You guys kill me. 356's are very much, in fact, VW's with a Porsche crest on them, or at least from the same family. Let's remember who invented the VW. There were Porsches with VW parts in them, from the factory, up until, when, 1974, 1975? Maybe later. You guys would know better than me. That makes them no good? No, that makes them smart to exchange parts within the same family.

But to say they have absolutely no performance aspects is to take them completely out of context. And to compare them with a 75S or a 996 is not fair. The 996's don't compare with 991's either. Fair?

356's were beating everything, everywhere in their day. Their day is not today. Their day was yesteryear. To drive one fast is exciting, and dangerous too. They're old cars. They can be improved. That's why we have outlaws. You don't have to like them, but you do have to respect the marques heritage. They BEGAN the marque. Every 911 everywhere owes it's design (and success) to the 356. Every one.

I like old Porsches. Every generation has old cars that they like; some from every decade they grew up in. Me? Well, I like cars from the 60's and 70's. I guess that dates me. I think 356's are cool. Wish I owned one. Oh well.

(+1 Matt. We must've been typing at the same time.)
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Old 09-09-2018, 09:31 AM
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My performance aspects comment had nothing to do with comping it to more modern cars, that’s totally unfair, and a bit silly. Compare it to other sports cars of its day, though, and it’s still quite inferior. That was my point. It was weak and slow then, and it’s even more so now, as others have (unfairly) comped it to more modern sports cars.

Last edited by JMS935; 09-09-2018 at 10:19 AM..
Old 09-09-2018, 10:15 AM
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I can get that a 356 may have been fast in 1950s compared to parade float Chevys or whatever.

Same can be said about the Model T. Fastest car of its day? Great.
But, we don't drive them, and they are in museums now.
And we certainly don't compare Model T performance to modern cars.

The point was that the 356 flipper guy was underwhelmed when he drove a 996.
How does that work? One is a sport bike, while the other is a moped (with raw animal aspects?)
A unicycle must also have raw animal aspects? Even more analog than a car with an new fangled engine thingy.
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Last edited by sugarwood; 09-09-2018 at 10:35 AM..
Old 09-09-2018, 10:20 AM
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I wrote this in the past, regarding the 996 hate.

Internet: [996 944 Boxster Cayman] is stupid water pumper quasi-Porsche!! They are so lame. My air cooled car is the pure thing. The only true raw driving experience. The annual 6 month hibernation is over. Looking to put on another 200 miles this year. I'll be sure to change the oil filter twice! Excuse me, I have a C&C to attend so I can get the best parking spot! Anyone got the Windex?

Track: [996 944 Boxster Cayman] is represented by a ratio of 5:1 vs. air cooled garage ornaments. Many are gutted scarred pitted stripped down track machines that are bare bones kidney rattling race cars. They are sometimes the fastest cars on the track. You can try to explain to them what a real Porsche, but they are busy doing laps, and would not be able to hear you anyway.
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Old 09-09-2018, 10:33 AM
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I've seen properly setup 944s run rings around the same period 911 on the track many times.

Would I like to have a 356 in the garage? Yes, sure. Would I like to have Adams 356 D? Sure would. But after all my experiences there are many more cars I would like to experience before I take a dirt nap.

I would take a '60s Mini Cooper over a 356 right now - just because I have never owned one, but have driven them and they are fun too.
Old 09-09-2018, 11:28 AM
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some serious myopia in these parts...
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Old 09-09-2018, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarwood View Post
What animal aspect? You mean like the Model T ? Underwhelmed? A 356 has 59hp. I think you can bicycle faster than that.

There's nothing about the 356 that is appealing to anyone I know. Looks like a Beetle, sounds like a Beetle.
Except the Beetle looks better, since the tires actually come out to flush the width of the body panels.

First time I rode in a 996, my face was melted off. Insane car that runs circles around SC/Carrera.
Groupthink and Brainwashing is strong in the car culture.
Maybe you missed the part where we are comparing 911's, but since you brought up 356's, the animal aspect is present in those too. It's the difference between driving a 80's 911 and a Mitsibiuishi 3000, both are fast but one is like playing a video game where you can see the needles moving but you can't hear the motor very well, and you aren't feeling much action with the road. That's what the 996 felt like for me, a couple of steps removed from the car. Yes it was fast, but it just wasn't the same.

As far as the comment comparing the Beetle to a 356, I've yet to see someone who has made that comment and actually owned a 356 for any period of time. Again, apples and oranges, distant cousins at best. But I don't remember any Beetles beating Ferrari on the track back in the day, and if they were so similar, I bet you would have seen more on the racetrack, but nope you saw nothing but 356's, there is a reason for that. One was a sports car, one was a people mover.

----Adam



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Old 09-09-2018, 12:49 PM
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. Compare it to other sports cars of its day, though, and itís still quite inferior. That was my point. It was weak and slow then, and itís even more so now, as others have (unfairly) comped it to more modern sports cars.
It was weak and slow, when it was beating everything on the field and taking the checker? Ferrari, Osca, Maserati, Jaguar, you name it, they all got beat by a Porsche 356 and usually with 1/10th of the race budget.

Anyone who is confused by this should buy a copy of Excellence was Expected and take this winter and do some reading, you might come back understanding more about Porsche and why it is synonymous with winning, long before the 9 series were dominating, the 356's and 550's were cleaning the clock of everything on the track, and there wasn't a beetle in sight...

---Adam
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Old 09-09-2018, 12:59 PM
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some serious myopia in these parts...
With the current 356 marketplace , aren't mismatched 356s practically "worthless" and something like this worth a fraction of an original even when it should outperform the original by that much ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-Porsche-356-Martini-Racing-Unique-SEE-VIDEO/232913829357

https://youtu.be/mxZbHkB26f4
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Old 09-09-2018, 01:08 PM
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With the current 356 marketplace , aren't mismatched 356s practically "worthless" and something like this worth a fraction of an original even when it should outperform the original by that much ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-Porsche-356-Martini-Racing-Unique-SEE-VIDEO/232913829357

https://youtu.be/mxZbHkB26f4
But that's not a Porsche, so there can't be a comparison.

---Adam
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Old 09-09-2018, 01:12 PM
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It was weak and slow, when it was beating everything on the field and taking the checker? Ferrari, Osca, Maserati, Jaguar, you name it, they all got beat by a Porsche 356 and usually with 1/10th of the race budget.

Anyone who is confused by this should buy a copy of Excellence was Expected and take this winter and do some reading, you might come back understanding more about Porsche and why it is synonymous with winning, long before the 9 series were dominating, the 356's and 550's were cleaning the clock of everything on the track, and there wasn't a beetle in sight...

---Adam
Agree completely Adam, and while there may not have been any Beetles in sight on those track, their parts were all over those 356's beating those Ferraris.

The Beetle is as much the heritage of the 356 as the 356 is to the 911. Ferdinand begat both.
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Old 09-09-2018, 01:39 PM
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Someone earlier made a silly comment earlier about 996s running circles around 993s. Must have been a joke..... When I owned my 993 and drove my father’s 996 back to back, there is little to no difference in power and I’d say that the 996 handled slightly better. The overall layout, build quality, seats and driving experience of the 993 are far superior. The 996 is more modern and reliable. My father has had his 996 for 15 years and has had only minor unscheduled repairs. IMS issue is overblown btw.
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Old 09-09-2018, 01:58 PM
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