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Originally Posted by ShopCat View Post
I'm always kind of torn on this subject. I get that wages have stagnated and can sympathize as I am on the young(ish) side of the millennial gen. All the arguments are there and I see them to be true, yet all of my friends are doing quite well, advancing their careers, making good money and have little to complain about. I guess maybe if we had the same adjusted prices previous gens had I'd be sending this response from a vacation home, instead of my office. But I can't control that.
You have a biased sample if you just go by your friends. All my friends are doing well, too. In fact, they may be doing even better than they would have in previous generations. Highly educated, numerate people are in demand. My direct sample of "average" people is cousins and other more distant family that went to mid to lower tier universities and or didn't go to college at all. Those people are struggling.
Old 05-13-2019, 12:10 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Itís the Marketplace forum, to talk about values. You donít like the topic? Nobody makes you read the threads.
Just giving my worthless opinion like you do all the time Matt.
Old 05-13-2019, 12:10 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NYNick View Post
Um, no. This is just not true. You speak from zero experience on the first subject.

Tuition was out of reach for almost everybody back then. Almost all of us worked all during the school year AND summers to pay our way through college. Many of my friends never did "make it", despite high priced educations and privileged upbringings? Why?

Same reason your friends haven't. They were either lazy, made bad choices, had bad luck or didn't choose to pursue a high life style. It's not the economy, it's the people in the economy.

And the Porsche clubs are nothing but white haired old guys? Maybe where you live, but the last autocross I went to, I was the oldest guy there by 20 years.

Porsche Parades are different. They require several days off. Most working guys can't afford the time off to go to those, so the majority of participants are old guys like myself.
The numbers contradict you. Your reluctance to recognize reality is a very boomer trait, unfortunately.

My mentor is a boomer. Most open-minded guy I've ever met. Always learning. Not afraid to deal with the world as it is, not as it was or as he wishes it would be. And exceptional in this regard, unfortunately.
Old 05-13-2019, 12:12 PM
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Just giving my worthless opinion like you do all the time Matt.
Oh, my feelings are hurt. Iím gonna go cry in the corner and eat my hamburger.
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Old 05-13-2019, 12:19 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #44 (permalink)
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Oh, my feelings are hurt. Iím gonna go cry in the corner and eat my hamburger.
There you go Nancy, donít forget the fries.
Old 05-13-2019, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by NYNick View Post
Um, no. This is just not true.
Do you have any data to support this claim? Are you arguing that college costs have not risen faster than wages over the last 40 years?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2018/07/24/price-of-college-increasing-almost-8-times-faster-than-wages/#5b21086e66c1
Old 05-13-2019, 12:31 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #46 (permalink)
 
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1.You're not understanding. When boomers went to school, tuition was something they could pay for working part time during the summers. Today's average tuition requires like 4000 hours of min wage to pay for. The same thing has happened to housing; millions of people grew up in areas and can no longer afford a home similar to the one they grew up in, the prices increased so substantially in the past 20 years that there is no way they'll ever be home owners.

- Not really. Median house price today is about $300K. Median HH income is $60K. So it takes 5 years of median income to buy a median home. That ratio hasn't changed significantly over the past 30-40 years. And today's interest rates are 1/2 what they were in the 70s and 80s, which means the effective cost is lower. Of course there are extreme areas like SF or NYC. If you can't afford to live there, move somewhere cheaper. Evil old boomers aren't forcing you to stay.

2. Wages have not moved in almost 3 decades. Cost of everything else has gone up dramatically.
- Not really. In 1987 median household income, in constant 2018 dollars was $53K. In 2017, it was $61K. That's an increase of 15% in real dollars.

3. Disagree. Go to a Porsche meetup. Most of the owners, in my experience, have white hair and are close to retirement, or retired. Most of them also just cut checks to specialist shops that do all their wrenching for them. There's a reason I've never gone back to one. Rich boomers.

- Evil rich boomers attend meetups? If you say so. I have no clue since I have never attended one, and have no interest in attending any. Maybe it's an old guy thing? I dunno. The people BUYING them today - ie the ones driving prices higher - are not boomers. Boomers are the ones selling to GenXers. And as in any market, buyers set the price, not sellers.

I cut checks to specialists as well. I subscribe to the notion of paying experts to do the job right. Outsource if you will. If I have a plumbing issue, I call a plumber who has seen my issue 1000 time before and knows what to do. I could do it myself I guess. I could search YouTube and fumble around until I get it done, get dirty, and waste an entire afternoon. Or I could pay $125 to a plumber who knows what he's doing and fixes the problem in an hour, cleans up and goes on his way. My time is worth more to me to make a call and be done with it. And the same principle applies to a Porsche mechanic. Whatever your issue is, chances are he's seen it before. Probably has seen it 100 times before. You're not paying him so much for the physical labor of removing a bad part and putting in a good part. You're paying him for the knowledge he has attained over the years, to know what part needs to replaced based on a ticking sound or a vibration or a certain color of exhaust smoke or whatever.
Old 05-13-2019, 12:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #47 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Vaive View Post
I am actively shopping for one. There are two types of sellers out there that I have encountered. One is the "my car's twin sold on BAT for $62K so I'll ask $67K" seller. The other is "I bought this car for $16K, 15 years ago, if I get $45K for it, I'll be happy". It's basically two separate markets for the same product.

And I'm talking about non-junk stuff. Not garage queens either, the 50% in the middle stuff.
$45-70K is correct for good to excellent condition cars.

Where's the bubble ?
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Old 05-13-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ShopCat View Post
Do you have any data to support this claim? Are you arguing that college costs have not risen faster than wages over the last 40 years?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2018/07/24/price-of-college-increasing-almost-8-times-faster-than-wages/#5b21086e66c1
Data? No. I'm just talking from experience. Everyone I know did as I said. We worked to go to school.

And no, I'm not arguing college costs have not risen faster than wages. College costs today are an unregulated travesty supporting unrealistic societal expectations. I'll give you that point for sure.
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Old 05-13-2019, 12:54 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #49 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BLACK3.2 View Post
The numbers contradict you. Your reluctance to recognize reality is a very boomer trait, unfortunately.

My mentor is a boomer. Most open-minded guy I've ever met. Always learning. Not afraid to deal with the world as it is, not as it was or as he wishes it would be. And exceptional in this regard, unfortunately.
What's your point? To group an entire generation as having reluctance to recognize reality is just beyond the pale of rationality.

I'm guessing you know nothing about the 60's and 70's? You may want to read up on those days before you condemn us for not recognizing reality, my friend.
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Old 05-13-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by NYNick View Post
Data? No. I'm just talking from experience. Everyone I know did as I said. We worked to go to school.

And no, I'm not arguing college costs have not risen faster than wages. College costs today are an unregulated travesty supporting unrealistic societal expectations. I'll give you that point for sure.
I’d make one additional point

Proliferation of worthless degrees at the expense of learning a trade is killing the earning potential of the two generations following mine. My plumber charges $175 an hour and you aren’t outsourcing taking a dump. It’s inculcated that you need to go to college to make a good living. I’d posit that a master plumber that’s not a drunk and turns up has a higher earning potential than a graduate in medieval history, regardless of who’s more in touch with their feelings
Old 05-13-2019, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Vaive View Post
1.You're not understanding. When boomers went to school, tuition was something they could pay for working part time during the summers. Today's average tuition requires like 4000 hours of min wage to pay for. The same thing has happened to housing; millions of people grew up in areas and can no longer afford a home similar to the one they grew up in, the prices increased so substantially in the past 20 years that there is no way they'll ever be home owners.

- Not really. Median house price today is about $300K. Median HH income is $60K. So it takes 5 years of median income to buy a median home. That ratio hasn't changed significantly over the past 30-40 years. And today's interest rates are 1/2 what they were in the 70s and 80s, which means the effective cost is lower. Of course there are extreme areas like SF or NYC. If you can't afford to live there, move somewhere cheaper. Evil old boomers aren't forcing you to stay.
No, you still don't get it. Median income INCLUDES boomers, who refuse to retire because they're generally in the highest paid positions. Look at the median income of that age group, vs housing prices.

https://smartasset.com/retirement/the-average-salary-of-a-millennial

"To find the average millennial earnings, SmartAsset crunched the numbers using data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. We counted millennial Americans as those who were between 16 and 34 in 2015. We found that the average salary of a millennial is $684 per week or $35,592 per year. That’s for what the BLS calls “wage and salary workers, excluding incorporated self employed.”

This is an old graph, but be assured the general trend has not changed:



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Old 05-13-2019, 01:38 PM
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Iíd make one additional point

Proliferation of worthless degrees at the expense of learning a trade is killing the earning potential of the two generations following mine. My plumber charges $175 an hour and you arenít outsourcing taking a dump. Itís inculcated that you need to go to college to make a good living. Iíd posit that a master plumber thatís not a drunk and turns up has a higher earning potential than a graduate in medieval history, regardless of whoís more in touch with their feelings
Valid point, but you're also changing the subject. No matter what degree or trade anyone has, the cost of housing has not stayed the same ratio with what people are earning, ESPECIALLY younger people.

I am doing pretty well. I'm under 40. Own 5 cars. A 911. A house. A boat.

But I am extremely lucky, and fortunate, being fairly bright and resourceful. I tend to buy projects, fix them up, and that is how I afford toys and multiple vehicles. Lots of people aren't that way.

Even with a really good job, my student loans are $580/month. It ****ing sucks.
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Old 05-13-2019, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan A View Post
Iíd make one additional point

Proliferation of worthless degrees at the expense of learning a trade is killing the earning potential of the two generations following mine. My plumber charges $175 an hour and you arenít outsourcing taking a dump. Itís inculcated that you need to go to college to make a good living. Iíd posit that a master plumber thatís not a drunk and turns up has a higher earning potential than a graduate in medieval history, regardless of whoís more in touch with their feelings

This is what I share at family get togethers when siblings preach to nieces and nephews that you must have college to succeed.
Old 05-13-2019, 01:54 PM
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ADDVANCED,

Whatever boomer peed in your corn flakes, you need to just forgive and move on dude. Seriously, it's not healthy to be so fixated on a group of 80 million people, 99.99% of whom have done nothing to you.

And that's a selective chart you posted that conveniently ends at the peak of the last bubble and starts at one of the lowest points in history.

Here's a more recent version. In 1980 it was 3.8, today it's 4.4. WOW!!! You're right man, boomers like totally destroyed your ability to own a house.

Oh and what's this? In the 1950s that ratio was HIGHER than it is today. Bbbut bbbut bbut the good old days and evil boomers and stuff!! This is the problem with milenials. You have zero concept of history. Learn a few things, it helps.

https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-income-ratio/

Last edited by Vaive; 05-13-2019 at 02:13 PM..
Old 05-13-2019, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ADDvanced View Post

Even with a really good job, my student loans are $580/month. It ****ing sucks.
$7K a year for what 20 years? The median extra income between college and non-college grads is $20 a year. Work 40 years, make an extra $800K, for the investment of $140K in student loan payback.

I can tell you didn't major in finance, since you don't realize what an incredibly sound investment that is. I want to say this is typical milenial behavior, but I won't..
Old 05-13-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by robertmark View Post

This is what I share at family get togethers when siblings preach to nieces and nephews that you must have college to succeed.
Does that include Foxconn and not-so-Genius bar employees?
Old 05-13-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Vaive View Post
$7K a year for what 20 years? The median extra income between college and non-college grads is $20 a year. Work 40 years, make an extra $800K, for the investment of $140K in student loan payback.

I can tell you didn't major in finance, since you don't realize what an incredibly sound investment that is. I want to say this is typical milenial behavior, but I won't..
Lol the mark is over there ---------------->
Old 05-13-2019, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JMS935 View Post
I closely monitor the 930 market, which is what Iím referring to, and thatís down quite a bit from its highs. Turds with lots of miles on them were pulling six figures a couple two to three years ago, and now it takes a very special 930 to even break six figures. Iíd say some were so ill-bought that theyíve lost probably half their value if sold today. So to some that rushed into this hobby at the very top of the frothy market, they got burned. Some of these buys have depreciated much faster than a new car (at the same price point) driven off the dealerís lot. Hopefully they've at least have gotten some enjoyment out of it while itís been bleeding money.
I just don't get some of the yahoos on BAT during these 930 auctions. I watch them all closely and I thought the red 88 with 47k that sold for $80,500 was pretty close to fair value with the buyers fee, maybe even a little high in today's market. Too many people trying to guarantee that this was a $100k car or more or telling people they should be buying as many as they can find at these prices. Ridiculous. The seller had just bought the car for low $70's at a publicly well known auction. There is not a whole lotta mystery.
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Vaive View Post
ADDVANCED,

Whatever boomer peed in your corn flakes, you need to just forgive and move on dude. Seriously, it's not healthy to be so fixated on a group of 80 million people, 99.99% of whom have done nothing to you.

And that's a selective chart you posted that conveniently ends at the peak of the last bubble and starts at one of the lowest points in history.

Here's a more recent version. In 1980 it was 3.8, today it's 4.4. WOW!!! You're right man, boomers like totally destroyed your ability to own a house.

Oh and what's this? In the 1950s that ratio was HIGHER than it is today. Bbbut bbbut bbut the good old days and evil boomers and stuff!! This is the problem with milenials. You have zero concept of history. Learn a few things, it helps.

https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-income-ratio/
Weren't baby boomers born after the war? So... are the 50's relevant in this argument? Because wasn't it the war that spurned all the growth seen into the 60s? Which is why wages increased so drastically and brought the ratio down in the first place? Your whole argument is irrelevant anyway, as HH income is a misleading stat. You think its keeping up, when in reality there are more dual income households than in the past. How is the ratio relevant again? The fact that it is still higher, despite 50% increase in dual HH incomes, just proves the point.

Last edited by ShopCat; 05-13-2019 at 03:47 PM..
Old 05-13-2019, 03:35 PM
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