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Ironic that the 1982 911 SC directly below this thread has the original 85 mph unit installed.
Old 06-28-2019, 06:14 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
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I read the BAT comments and techweenie was all over the speedo swap. I think the Germany delivery story with speedo swap is B.S. since that speedometer was not available in 1982 or 1983 (perhaps 1986?). The VDO date stamp would tell the story. More BAT "I Believe" low mileage hype.
Old 06-28-2019, 06:51 PM
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Many of those speedos were changed since the top speed was clearly more than 80 mph. Without solid documentation of the speedo swap this is nothing more than a TMU car, a very expensive one at that.
Old 06-28-2019, 07:07 PM
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Well, my client has released me to share what I found in inspecting the car for him.

Seller wouldn't allow pulling the speedometer to read the date stamp. Right door gap appears not to be fixable by hinge shims -- likely the door shell needs twisting in order to create an acceptable gap. Full repaint indicated by random orange peel and sanding marks showin on the cowl in front of the driver's position. Anecdotal report of prior body damage as told to a previous prospective buyer.

For all that, the car was truly outstanding in terms of interior condition, suspension & chassis and engine performance (SSIs really woke that engine up!).

My main concern was that the bidders who went past what I considered to be the car's true value by, say $10K, were doing so on the basis of the claim of original paint & miles.

Look at the 'ledge' next to the trim at lower left: clear evidence of respray without color sand & buff. Note door gap.



Note the 'twist' of the door where it's flush at the lower portion and stands proud of the car toward the top of the gap. Paint meter reading was nearly double on this door...



The irony is that with those things disclosed, I'd still have strongly recommended the car. But the lack of disclosure raised suspicion about all the other claims.
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Last edited by techweenie; 06-29-2019 at 07:16 AM.. Reason: typo
Old 06-29-2019, 04:34 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
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techweenie, thanks for sharing that.

Learned a thing or two and it's a good dose of reality for others.
Old 06-29-2019, 05:32 AM
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Not to mention the horrible fit on the running boards in the last photo!
Old 06-29-2019, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by peter leinberge View Post
not to mention the horrible fit on the running boards in the last photo!
roflmao!
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Old 06-29-2019, 06:00 AM
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I believe this value is truly an anomaly.

The market is saying a slightly modified 28k SC is worth $70k+..... balderdash.
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Old 06-29-2019, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Macroni View Post
I believe this value is truly an anomaly.

The market is saying a slightly modified 28k SC is worth $70k+..... balderdash.
Yeah, that's why I called it irrational exuberance, but there's also the macho factor at work in some auctions, plus the peanut gallery cheering the bidders on.

The irony is that the same crowd is dumping all over a current auction for a metallic brown SC coupe that would probably be nearly as enjoyable to own... And ganging up on a red 83...

You can click on a BAT commenter's name and get their history, and some of the highly-rated commenters have never once bid on a car. I guess they're like the old guys who used to sit in the barber shop and chew the fat all day.
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Old 06-29-2019, 06:10 AM
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Yeah, that's why I called it irrational exuberance, but there's also the macho factor at work in some auctions, plus the peanut gallery cheering the bidders on.

The irony is that the same crowd is dumping all over a current auction for a metallic brown SC coupe that would probably be nearly as enjoyable to own... And ganging up on a red 83...

You can click on a BAT commenter's name and get their history, and some of the highly-rated commenters have never once bid on a car. I guess they're like the old guys who used to sit in the barber shop and chew the fat all day.
Speaking of macho factor, is he flexing in bicycle shorts in your first pic?
Old 06-29-2019, 06:28 AM
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So it’s advertised and sold as an all original (read accident free) 23k mile car, when in reality it’s been most likely involved in some sort of an accident with a repaint, and at some point an odometer swap making it a true mileage unknown car. So what did we learn here? List it on BaT, play dumb and/or deflect any questions you need to (read multiple paint meter requests), and enough of the BaT cheerleaders will help sway any/all uncertainties in your favor. Then combined that with enough bidders out there with their BaT blinders on, and voila...there you have it - a hammer price reflecting a 23k mile all original car. This is a perfect recipe for a seller, yet an expensive grab bag of sorts for a buyer.

This is just another prime example of why I keep saying BaT is for sellers only, as a bidder you’ll always be bidding against enough of these buyers that either simply don’t care, or are just blindly putting their trust into the peanut gallery. This makes it nearly impossible to suss out the discrepancies in what the seller is telling you and what the car is telling you, and then get the car bought at a value more appropriate for what it’s worth (which is what the car is telling you), because it’ll almost always sell to a blind BaT idiot based on simply what the seller is telling you. Because after all, this is the Internet, it’s printed right there on the screen so it has to be accurate.
Old 06-29-2019, 06:30 AM
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So it’s advertised and sold as an all original (read accident free) 23k mile car, when in reality it’s been most likely involved in some sort of an accident with a repaint, and at some point an odometer swap making it a true mileage unknown car. So what did we learn here? List it on BaT, play dumb and/or deflect any questions you need to (read multiple paint meter requests), and enough of the BaT cheerleaders will help sway any/all uncertainties in your favor. Then combined that with enough bidders out there with their BaT blinders on, and voila...there you have it - a hammer price reflecting a 23k mile all original car. This is a perfect recipe for a seller, yet an expensive grab bag of sorts for a buyer.

This is just another prime example of why I keep saying BaT is for sellers only, as a bidder you’ll always be bidding against enough of these buyers that either simply don’t care, or are just blindly putting their trust into the peanut gallery. This makes it nearly impossible to suss out the discrepancies in what the seller is telling you and what the car is telling you, and then get the car bought at a value more appropriate for what it’s worth (which is what the car is telling you), because it’ll almost always sell to a blind BaT idiot based on simply what the seller is telling you. Because after all, this is the Internet, it’s printed right there on the screen so it has to be accurate.
It’s even worse at live auction in my opinion of which I don’t think you are a fan of either
Old 06-29-2019, 08:06 AM
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Itís even worse at live auction in my opinion of which I donít think you are a fan of either
Iím not sure itís actually worse at a live auction, other than the commission of course. If youíre in attendance when bidding you can at least view the car in person yourself. What a live auction doesnít have, is the entire audience cheering on the bidders and telling them how amazing the car is and how great a deal it is regardless of where the bid is. BaT has that market cornered all to themselves.

This auction sums up the BaT experience perfectly, the one guy (techweenie) who inspected the car in person was flagged by others as being not constructive, yet he was speaking the truth about the car, but thatís not what BaT or the BaT cheerleading crew want to hear. Itís the equivalent of ignoring your stock broker for stock advice, while at the same time buying stock in a company after overhearing the guy at the table next to you at Starbucks talk about this great stock investment with his buddy over coffee.
Old 06-29-2019, 08:49 AM
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... engine performance (SSIs really woke that engine up!).
Seems out of character for the owner to test drive it for you. Or did it sound good sitting in the garage ?

Quote:
The irony is that with those things disclosed, I'd still have strongly recommended the car. But the lack of disclosure raised suspicion about all the other claims.
I read that as saying collectors will do what collectors do. Low mileage trumps condition.
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Last edited by pmax; 06-29-2019 at 09:52 AM..
Old 06-29-2019, 09:49 AM
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This isn’t an original car a collection would value.

This is a modified car.
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Old 06-29-2019, 11:41 AM
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I’m not sure it’s actually worse at a live auction, other than the commission of course. If you’re in attendance when bidding you can at least view the car in person yourself. What a live auction doesn’t have, is the entire audience cheering on the bidders and telling them how amazing the car is and how great a deal it is regardless of where the bid is. BaT has that market cornered all to themselves.

This auction sums up the BaT experience perfectly, the one guy (techweenie) who inspected the car in person was flagged by others as being not constructive, yet he was speaking the truth about the car, but that’s not what BaT or the BaT cheerleading crew want to hear. It’s the equivalent of ignoring your stock broker for stock advice, while at the same time buying stock in a company after overhearing the guy at the table next to you at Starbucks talk about this great stock investment with his buddy over coffee.
I was thinking more along the lines of a seller can claim his car is all original paint, low miles etc and unless you are very experienced you are buying on their word. Good luck even getting to talk at length with a seller. Often times people are only buying on what they see which can be good and bad. At least with BAT if you are paying attention to what people like Techweenie are saying you have a shot at avoiding a poor purchase. If people choose to ignore others warnings that’s their problem. The buyer can only be mad at himself as he was warned

Last edited by nathanbs; 06-29-2019 at 12:22 PM..
Old 06-29-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by techweenie View Post

For all that, the car was truly outstanding in terms of interior condition, suspension & chassis and engine performance (SSIs really woke that engine up!).

My main concern was that the bidders who went past what I considered to be the car's true value by, say $10K, were doing so on the basis of the claim of original paint & miles.

The irony is that with those things disclosed, I'd still have strongly recommended the car. But the lack of disclosure raised suspicion about all the other claims.
I think you are spot on that the interior sold this car. An all leather interior is a rare option on a 911 SC. The 1982 Porsche Fact book specifies that a beige interior, ďYCĒ has the dashboard, window sills, and rear shelf in brown, as well as having a brown leatherette headliner. Considering that this car has mileage unknown (23K advertised), the interior looks too good to be true but certainly looks original from the photos. You would think the driverís seat would show some wear but there nothing visibleÖlooks brand new.

With the amazing interior considered and even with the body fit/repaint that you mentioned, I think an all original time capsule would not have some of the mods/lack of info present to demand the realized price:
- Missing the original window sticker.
- H4s installed with no date-matched original headlights w/ the car.
- No windshield wipers.
- 1982 911 SCís came standard with a leather wrapped 3-spoke wheel; why was it replaced with a non-date matched earlier Carrera wheel?
- Suspension modifications w/ anti-roll bars from a 1996 Carrera and a Weltmeister front strut bar.
- Has rear RoW bumper installed but does come with original U.S. bumper.
- No photos of the Fuchs date stamps.
Old 06-30-2019, 05:54 AM
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Speaking of macho factor, is he flexing in bicycle shorts in your first pic?
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Old 06-30-2019, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by techweenie View Post
Yeah, that's why I called it irrational exuberance, but there's also the macho factor at work in some auctions, plus the peanut gallery cheering the bidders on.

The irony is that the same crowd is dumping all over a current auction for a metallic brown SC coupe that would probably be nearly as enjoyable to own... And ganging up on a red 83...

You can click on a BAT commenter's name and get their history, and some of the highly-rated commenters have never once bid on a car. I guess they're like the old guys who used to sit in the barber shop and chew the fat all day.
I didn't get to over 5000 likes by posting valuable, insightful content.
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Old 06-30-2019, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by techweenie View Post
I guess they're like the old guys who used to sit in the barber shop and chew the fat all day.
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Old 06-30-2019, 10:37 AM
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