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How much, how hard? Standard BTR motor to BTR III

For any of Y'all with Ruf knowledge, I've been brainstorming about how to possibly get a BTR motor converted to a Motoronic, twin injector BTR III without going directly to Ruf with the question. I'm just afraid to ask due to the eye watering price I believe they will give me. Certainly I don't have the cash for that at the moment. I want it to be original Ruf parts like my previous BTR III motor which I foolishly let go of 20 years ago.

The upside on HP is 408 vs 374. It may not be worth it in any regard considering the cost that could go with it. The effort may lead me nowhere. Finding the parts would be the hard part used. The chip I would have to go to Ruf for, unless someone had one used. I still have my original Ruf BTR III ecu but it is damaged and unusable. I could ask Ruf to replace it, but I don't have anything else left from the original. I would need fuel rails, injectors 12, engine harness, sensors, fuel pumps (plural), and to be honest, I'm not sure what else! Intake manifold?

Thanks to anyone with any insights or advice. I'm trying to get my car back to original state, as it was when I first got it. I'm not thinking of other build options.

bernie

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Old 10-19-2019, 02:49 AM
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Best place to go is Ruf if you don’t want to use anything else. Make the call. You would need the Motronic and Harness. Then have a shop twin plug it for you. Discuss it with Ruf in Germany you may get surprised at their cost for doing the work. It may be comparable to a Porsche specialist in your area.
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Old 10-19-2019, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by speednme1 View Post
Best place to go is Ruf if you donít want to use anything else. Make the call. You would need the Motronic and Harness. Then have a shop twin plug it for you. Discuss it with Ruf in Germany you may get surprised at their cost for doing the work. It may be comparable to a Porsche specialist in your area.
Funny you answered first! Incidentally, I just PMed you half an hour ago.

Well, point taken, but if I can avoid it for the moment I will. I'll explain. In my area, Ruf wants me to use their dealer in Kyoto. When I didn't have a motor at all and on the phone numerous times with Ruf Germany in Feb./March, they said about 35000 Euro, but I'd have to take my car to Ishida. It's only about an hour from here. I finally went to meet the Ishida brothers for the first time in late March when I got this answer from Manual Mayer, straight from the mouth of head of the workshop Mr. Ruf, not Aloise, I just can't drag up his first name at this moment on memory.

When I finally sat down with the Ishida brothers and told them what Ruf Germany told me, it all stopped in a heartbeat. Now I remember, his name is Marcel. Anyway, the brothers are two of a kind. One is an ambassador for the company who is fluent in English, the other won't utter a word in English. He's the Shacho or boss. So it was like good cop, bad cop if you will. The boss just shook his head, said it's too cheap at 35000 Euro. So they called Marcel Monday week, came back to me with a better price!

60.000 to 80,000 Euro and perhaps more since some BTR parts are out of production! My heart just fell through the floor when I got that phone call. They even said finding a crankshaft for a BTR motor would be like 10K or a million yen. Of course I didn't believe that bullsh-t!

Regardless, I found a motor in Europe, or perhaps it found me. Either way, it's still in Europe, so there is possibly a way to engage Ruf Germany and have little or nothing to do with the dealer here hopefully. I told Manual on the phone after this event -- I'm not Japanese, I'm an American living in Japan and I'm not going to give up on my car! He replied -- Yes, don't give up!

bernie
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Old 10-19-2019, 08:20 AM
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Put a parts wanted ad on here and rennlist.
You may be suprised at what some people have laying around and wanting to get rid of.
If on the other hand no one answers your ad you’re not out anything but some time.
Good luck
Tony
Old 10-19-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigtoe32067 View Post
Put a parts wanted ad on here and rennlist.
You may be suprised at what some people have laying around and wanting to get rid of.
If on the other hand no one answers your ad youíre not out anything but some time.
Good luck
Tony
Thank you Tony! Sounds like a good plan. I need to join Rennlist. I think I was on there many many years ago briefly. Can't remember user name etc.

regards,
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Old 10-20-2019, 04:19 AM
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For some people it’s not done until it’s over done. I’m not that guy. I would just rebuild it as “stock” and enjoy the car.
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Old 10-21-2019, 05:48 AM
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For some people itís not done until itís over done. Iím not that guy. I would just rebuild it as ďstockĒ and enjoy the car.
I believe you are right on Matt. So many times on other cars I went overboard trying to make it best. It takes more time, sometimes it takes too much time, never gets finished! Life is short they say. That's not as funny as it sounds, rather it's quite true! Just last week I stopped in to see an ol' friend who has a Porsche repair shop. I always keep him abreast on what's up, what I'm doing or planning to do. He joked with me saying -- your going to be an old geyser by the time you finish this one out! I'll by 57 on 11/3. He's about right, and joke well taken. He was around 20 years ago and knows my history with this car.

Stock you say? Original was BTR III twin plug. the engine I'm getting is stock BTR, difference of 34 Horsepower. I would be happy with less HP, just thinking original BTR III might raise the value a bit when it comes time to sell. One day I will have to even if I enjoy building it and/or driving it. Moreover, the 6 speed R 50-50 BTR/CTR might whine, saying where's my twin plug motronic mate? You've abandoned me!

hard call,

bernie
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Old 10-21-2019, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911heaven View Post
. . .
hard call,

bernie
No it isn't, Burnz! Thirty four horsepower is 34 horsepower - go ballz out BTR III or just go home!

Old 10-21-2019, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo View Post
No it isn't, Burnz! Thirty four horsepower is 34 horsepower - go ballz out BTR III or just go home!

Thanx Ron for the needed encouragement! I did need that! I will try and get there albeit slowly so as not to make too many mistakes. An extra 34 hp might be good since my car is a cab, and a little heavier (isn't it?). I always liked a good challenge out on the highway when ever I could find it, provided I had the ponies?! Would love to scorch some asses in a cab with the top down when the day comes, if it does. I'm on it!

bernie
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Old 10-22-2019, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by 911heaven View Post
For any of Y'all with Ruf knowledge, I've been brainstorming about how to possibly get a BTR motor converted to a Motoronic, twin injector BTR III without going directly to Ruf with the question. I'm just afraid to ask due to the eye watering price I believe they will give me. Certainly I don't have the cash for that at the moment. I want it to be original Ruf parts like my previous BTR III motor which I foolishly let go of 20 years ago.

The upside on HP is 408 vs 374. It may not be worth it in any regard considering the cost that could go with it. The effort may lead me nowhere. Finding the parts would be the hard part used. The chip I would have to go to Ruf for, unless someone had one used. I still have my original Ruf BTR III ecu but it is damaged and unusable. I could ask Ruf to replace it, but I don't have anything else left from the original. I would need fuel rails, injectors 12, engine harness, sensors, fuel pumps (plural), and to be honest, I'm not sure what else! Intake manifold?

Thanks to anyone with any insights or advice. I'm trying to get my car back to original state, as it was when I first got it. I'm not thinking of other build options.

bernie
So you're right.. most of the parts that you're wanting are old news/old skool so if you could get RUF to manufacture any of what you're wanting.. yes the cost will be eye-watering to say the least. The likely hood of you finding those pieces or event the BTRIII motor pretty much fall into the same category.

On the other hand, some of those components aren't exactly rocket-science. The dual injector manifold can be made.. just as RUF did by machining and welding in an extra set of injector bosses, the harness for this shouldn't be difficult to make either.. as far as the ECU.. you could play with that Motronic and see what you get as there are a number of folks around that can burn custom chips to meet your needs although working with someone with a dyno would be wise. On the other hand you can purchase any number of stand-alone ecu's and do your thing.. The RUF stuff is neat but now very costly old technology!
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Old 10-22-2019, 05:19 AM
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So you're right.. most of the parts that you're wanting are old news/old skool so if you could get RUF to manufacture any of what you're wanting.. yes the cost will be eye-watering to say the least. The likely hood of you finding those pieces or event the BTRIII motor pretty much fall into the same category.

On the other hand, some of those components aren't exactly rocket-science. The dual injector manifold can be made.. just as RUF did by machining and welding in an extra set of injector bosses, the harness for this shouldn't be difficult to make either.. as far as the ECU.. you could play with that Motronic and see what you get as there are a number of folks around that can burn custom chips to meet your needs although working with someone with a dyno would be wise. On the other hand you can purchase any number of stand-alone ecu's and do your thing.. The RUF stuff is neat but now very costly old technology!
Thank you onboost for more ideas and great insights! I've read your post many times over so that it would sink in. I'd hoped to keep the car vintage, but it may be the wrong path. Old technology may be holding me up, newer tech on the engine management might be cheaper, better and faster.

I will call Ruf one day soon to double check on a price. Even if they did it, they might install something newer on technology who knows. One other person on the engine forum here suggested going with a more modern system. Even so, if I did that, the motor would still be vintage even if the management system wasn't right?

Much appreciated!
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Old 10-23-2019, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by 911heaven View Post
Regardless, I found a motor in Europe, or perhaps it found me. Either way, it's still in Europe, so there is possibly a way to engage Ruf Germany and have little or nothing to do with the dealer here hopefully. I told Manual on the phone after this event -- I'm not Japanese, I'm an American living in Japan and I'm not going to give up on my car! He replied -- Yes, don't give up!
This does seem like the obvious way to go, if Ruf will play and importing the motor to Japan after conversion won't cause you any issues.

Otherwise, technology has moved on - for example, modern injectors have better atomization & flow rates that make dual injector setups unnecessary, while still giving perfectly acceptable idle, coil-on-plug delivers more power at the spark, modern stand-alones are far more capable than period Motronic etc.

So I guess it comes down to how much/whether you want the extra power and how much originality matters versus tasteful modernizations/updates that work better...
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Old 10-27-2019, 11:34 AM
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This does seem like the obvious way to go, if Ruf will play and importing the motor to Japan after conversion won't cause you any issues.

Otherwise, technology has moved on - for example, modern injectors have better atomization & flow rates that make dual injector setups unnecessary, while still giving perfectly acceptable idle, coil-on-plug delivers more power at the spark, modern stand-alones are far more capable than period Motronic etc.

So I guess it comes down to how much/whether you want the extra power and how much originality matters versus tasteful modernizations/updates that work better...
Thank you spuggy for great insights! What I keep getting is that newer tech is better, more convenient and perhaps cheaper too? The reason I'm leaning old skool Ruf tech is only about vintage and possible salability in the future, when that time comes. I'll try to stick with this course even at less performance until I may give up due to difficulty.

I have to thank you too for your good advice months ago on my tech forum thread about chassis loom. I still need to work that one out too as per vintage. You had a lot of good things to say even then. First priority is to work out the engine though. This is the issue at hand, and the most vital for sure.

regards,
bernie
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:05 AM
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For some people itís not done until itís over done. Iím not that guy. I would just rebuild it as ďstockĒ and enjoy the car.
This all the way. You have a piece of automotive history. It was built with no expense spared in its time. You risk wrecking that now. Enjoy it for what it is, including its limitations. Remember poetry is only possible with limitations.
Old 10-30-2019, 10:52 AM
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This all the way. You have a piece of automotive history. It was built with no expense spared in its time. You risk wrecking that now. Enjoy it for what it is, including its limitations. Remember poetry is only possible with limitations.
Pmax would accuse us of caveman syndrome. I just see it as respect for our cars’ history. There’s a difference between molesting a random 930 and reworking a Ruf. If building hot rods is one’s thing then sell the ruf and buy a project to finish.
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:07 AM
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Thereís a difference between molesting a random 930 and reworking a Ruf. If building hot rods is oneís thing then sell the ruf and buy a project to finish.
I couldn't agree more. A large attraction of my mongrel hot-rod with 250K miles on the tub was zero remorse at making it what I want because most of the work had already been done. Even so, I don't modify original parts... And thanks to tatty old paint, I park it anywhere without batting an eye, which I see as another bonus...

On the one hand, "it's your car, do what you want" and "you're not an unpaid museum curator" are perfectly valid POVs.

On the other hand, a real Ruf is pretty special - and a large part of the value would have to be originality or "correctness".

OP clearly doesn't want to needlessly waste money - but bills obviously don't scare him either. I think there are several options that would preserve the provenance:
  • Ruf go through the BTR motor he's been offered.
  • Ruf make the BTR motor into a BTR III
  • Ruf go through & update the BTR with updated tech - a BTR IV, if you will.

Another way might be to take the 1st or 2nd option against future resale purposes - and also build up a 964 or 993-based EFI/ITB/BB turbo mule for whazzing around in. That'd scratch the HP itch and also keep the original option on the table.

I'd be curious to know exactly how much Ruf under-state the output of the BTR III, actually. Everyone knows the numbers they gave for the CTR were *cough* conservative *cough*
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:56 AM
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Pmax would accuse us of caveman syndrome. If building hot rods is oneís thing then sell the ruf and buy a project to finish.




sean would not know cool if it was ran up his ass.....
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Old 10-30-2019, 09:48 PM
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^^^

Tobs, now all that bisch needs to complete the coolness is a huge intercooler up top (plus turbocharger, custom plenum for your carbs, etc.). Boosting that bisch should be your next project, bisch!!!

On the subject of car molestation, I see it differently than some of you guyz above. If a high performance machine was a living creature, it wouldn't give two shiits about being historically correct, but instead would yearn to be modded and improved upon with the best running gear possible (modern electronics, fuel systems, ignition systems, turbochargers, etc.); wouldn't matter if the machine was new, vintage (aka - old), or special (such as a Ruf), it would want to be stroked and poked into the most ferocious thing it could be. So therefor, an owner that chooses to take that road is showing the machine the ultimate respect.
Old 10-30-2019, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Pmax would accuse us of caveman syndrome. I just see it as respect for our carsí history. Thereís a difference between molesting a random 930 and reworking a Ruf. If building hot rods is oneís thing then sell the ruf and buy a project to finish.
This idea may have been misunderstood, or I wasn't clear. I don't know for sure. To clarify, and conversely, what I would like to do, if it were possible, my plan is go back to BTR III twin injector motronic system which is what I dismantled from the car 20 years ago. I don't have it anymore, foolishly let that engine go and all to do with it (still have the 6 speed R 50-50 transmission). So it's not veering away from stock Ruf on this car, rather trying to come back to it i.e. BTR III. The motor I'm acquiring isn't BTR III, rather standard BTR and single injector, non-motronic @ 374 hp. It is authentic BTR 3.4, Ruf stamped case. Even the engine no. is 63K (89), which my former engine had. That 63K is written on my title, so it fits very nicely. It isn't BTR III motronic however.

Still I'm quite intrigued and thankful for all the input here by everyone who is posting or has posted. There are great nuggets, helpful direction in all of these posts, so a big thanks to all! I still need to do some follow up on advice I've already been given. Takes time to do that with work schedule and time zones. I'll try to get there eventually, go slow too so as not to make many mistakes. Guys on the engine forum have also chimed in on my similar thread there, thanks to advice from M2 that I should list there.

bernie
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Old 10-31-2019, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by spuggy View Post
I couldn't agree more. A large attraction of my mongrel hot-rod with 250K miles on the tub was zero remorse at making it what I want because most of the work had already been done. Even so, I don't modify original parts... And thanks to tatty old paint, I park it anywhere without batting an eye, which I see as another bonus...

On the one hand, "it's your car, do what you want" and "you're not an unpaid museum curator" are perfectly valid POVs.

On the other hand, a real Ruf is pretty special - and a large part of the value would have to be originality or "correctness".

OP clearly doesn't want to needlessly waste money - but bills obviously don't scare him either. I think there are several options that would preserve the provenance:
  • Ruf go through the BTR motor he's been offered.
  • Ruf make the BTR motor into a BTR III
  • Ruf go through & update the BTR with updated tech - a BTR IV, if you will.

Another way might be to take the 1st or 2nd option against future resale purposes - and also build up a 964 or 993-based EFI/ITB/BB turbo mule for whazzing around in. That'd scratch the HP itch and also keep the original option on the table.

I'd be curious to know exactly how much Ruf under-state the output of the BTR III, actually. Everyone knows the numbers they gave for the CTR were *cough* conservative *cough*

Say spuggy, I was so inspired by your intuitive/informative post that I busted a move! Last night I called Ruf and was fortunate enough to speak with Mr.Ruf (Marcel -- head of the workshop). He was very cordial and gave me the invitation to ship the motor (while in Europe) to them for a BTR Iii upgrade. He also said they would test it on the dyno.


I may need now to think how to raise money for this! No prices were discussed, yet I did let him know I got this car 20 years ago by coincidence. I let him know that I'm not like most/all of their wealthy customers. See what you got me into here? I'm scared sh-tless what numbers will come back if/when I ship the motor to them. Probably the best idea though, as you and some others on engine forum said.

Thank you for the advice! I may come back and curse you after I get the bill! Just kidding I hope.

bernie

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Old 11-01-2019, 04:46 AM
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