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Yes Singer is taking 964 cars, no idea how many. I seen 2 other places doing the same with 964 too.
With that going on it will make Coupes and manuals, but generally all air cooled cars should be fine in the long haul simply because of volumes built.

A ugly stat came out where the Audi Q5, that’s right Audi Q5 outsold all 2019 Porsche’s in NA around 70,000 units
And the 991 models outsold all air cooled cars ever built...

Old 06-28-2020, 06:10 AM
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Audi Q5 is a $43k SUV.
It is a totally different product than Porsche
Honda Accord outsold all of them combined. So what?
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Old 06-28-2020, 09:30 AM
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Singer has slowed way down. I do t know if they are harvesting enough cars to be relevant to overall market value of 964s.
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Old 06-28-2020, 11:10 AM
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Hi

You missed my point Sugarwood
Not about cost....itís about volume
Car companies need volume, otherwise they use other car companies parts or make clones from a corporate car.
The Audi Q5 is basically a Macon ....
Itís been going on for years
What I am saying is in my view, Porsche is again having a harder time finding Customers and it shows in their sales volumes.
In time electric will be very common, Honda retooled the Marysville plant for electic.
I do not know your age Sugarwood but the trend is going down fast for cars in general and combustion engines in particular
Old 06-28-2020, 11:16 AM
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Matt

Maybe Singer is not a issue, but the fact is 964 C2 or C4 in Manual is becoming very hard to find.
It again is a volume metric, I do a fellow Porsche buddy that had to bring his own 964 to the Singer party, I think Singer requires Customers to find there own.

Is Singer a modern day fad?
With Porsche selling that crazy high dollar electric Turbo S, it crushes most if not all combustion engines if your final goal is speed and performance
Old 06-28-2020, 11:23 AM
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Price matters when financing a new luxury car.
Macan leases are probably around $700/mo.
Q5 leases are not close to that figure
There are in totally different segments.
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Old 06-28-2020, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgwollet View Post
Matt

Maybe Singer is not a issue, but the fact is 964 C2 or C4 in Manual is becoming very hard to find.
It again is a volume metric, I do a fellow Porsche buddy that had to bring his own 964 to the Singer party, I think Singer requires Customers to find there own.

Is Singer a modern day fad?
With Porsche selling that crazy high dollar electric Turbo S, it crushes most if not all combustion engines if your final goal is speed and performance
Yes, 964 are quite popular and can be hard to find. Iím just saying the Parrots who always blame Singer and their 100 cars in ten years are missing the mark.
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Old 06-28-2020, 04:21 PM
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964 rarity is due to the ugly duckling status it held for nearly 20 years. People tracked them, daily drove them and did not care for them during that span. Many have suffered severe body rot and lack of maintenance. VERY few good cars remain and with so few built and many still being modified to levels that can’t be restored it’s pretty tough to find good originals. Most of what is on the market is lipstick on a pig or very high priced originals and deservedly so. The styling has finally come into its own and it’s being recognized as the air cooled with some modern tech and old school looks. At that point Porsche was also still hand building them and the materials were better than the 993 and subsequent cars, hard to deny any of this.
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Last edited by Marine Blue; 06-28-2020 at 08:29 PM..
Old 06-28-2020, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marine Blue View Post
964 rarity is due to the ugly duckling status it held for nearly 20 years. People tracked them, daily drove them and did not care for them during that span. Many have suffered severe body rot and lack of maintenance. VERY few good cars remain and with so few built and many still being modified to levels that canít be restored itís pretty tough to find good originals. Most of what is on the market is lipstick on a pig or very high priced originals and deservedly so. The styling has finally come into its own and itís being recognized as the air cooled with some modern tech and old school looks. At that point Porsche was also still hand building them and the materials were better than the 993 and subsequent cars, hard to deny any of this.
We forget how bad the economy was for Porsche during the 964 years. So few cars sold and so few imported. There were only a smidge over 5000 964 Coupes imported other than the speciality cars like the RSA and turbo models this included all C4/C2 and tip versions. The bad years saw thousands of these parted out, trashed or left abandoned. I look at hundreds of these over the years and a handful IMO are collector quality or investment grade cars not many more are drivers and the rest are as Marine Blue stated lipstick on a pig. I occasionally come across a low mile example worthy of a restoration. Just mechanicals alone would cost the average person $30k to repair so it puts it out of the market for most since the sellers feel they have a $50k car.

I have seen far too many what I consider driver quality 964 coupes go by the way of singer while the pigs remain which to me is criminal. There are also many others being backdated and turned into outlaws. I too am guilty of cutting up what today are considered prime candidates for a restoration. With most likely less than 2500 coupes remaining many being C4's and tips any coupe chopped up to become a Singer or outlaw leaves one less for an interested buyer. I suspect with all the people in this country there are more than 2500 interested buyers for a nice 964 coupe.

What I think everyone is somewhat overlooking is unlike the market crashes of the past where the money is gone and those that have the disposable cash lost it. This has not impacted the big money players in the same way. There are many out there who are prospering from this mess and others just remain flat. The people who are most impacted by this are a small % of those interested in buying expensive toys like 911's.
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Anthony PCA affiliate '77 member '83 '90 3.8 RS tribute, '93 964 C2, '93 928 GTS 5 speed, '94 Turbo 3.6, M '15 Boxster GTS18 Macan GTS
Gone worth mentioning '71 E '79 SC, '79 built to '74 3.0 RS tribute (2390 # 270 hp), '80 928 euro 5 speed, '74 2.0l 914, '89 944 S2,'04 Cayenne TT '14 boxster, '14 Cayenne GTS many others
Old 06-29-2020, 04:20 AM
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the 964 is overweight, overly complicated and over priced.
overpriced due to supply and demand.
the power steering sucks.no head gaskets, as a rule.
260 horse - woop de doo - king of the pigmies
yes - i have owned one. it was decent, to say the least.
a thing of beauty, regardless - in spite of being known as the ugly D.
YMMV. and probably does.
Old 06-29-2020, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creaturecat View Post
the 964 is overweight, overly complicated and over priced.
overpriced due to supply and demand.
the power steering sucks.no head gaskets, as a rule.
260 horse - woop de doo - king of the pigmies
yes - i have owned one. it was decent, to say the least.
a thing of beauty, regardless - in spite of being known as the ugly D.
YMMV. and probably does.
Funny, I dropped the weight of my track car down to 2650 pounds and went with a manual rack and hated it so I installed a cup style electric pump to revert it back to power steering. Very little difference in feel over the cam driven pump without the power drain. These are not much more complicated than the earlier cars in fact engine builds IMO are easier and some issues were resolved that the earlier engines suffered from. I tracked a 2390 pound 3.2L max moritz built engined 3.0 RS tribute and it was fine at speed but still like the power assist of the 964 at slow speeds. Of all the air cooled's I have owned or driven the only one that I miss is the 71E and 3.0RS tribute. Almost purchased a 73 RS and wasn't all that impressed by it for the buy in but that was a long time ago. The most pure air cooled experience one can have is the E IMO. The rest IMO are second to the 964 although mine is extensively modified and with an MCS suspension is a blast that keeps up with just about anything in the twisties but makes you drive it. It is the only air cooled I would own today. With a simple tune and LWF the 964 is more than powerful enough ( actually only 247bhp) to keep up and or offer a driving experience that IMO is just perfect all around. If only the RS's weren't so expensive or difficult to convert a C2 over to. Although I am in the process of removing my sunroof as we speak and that changes a lot. Most 964's are running on old or poorly setup suspensions which makes a world of difference. A well tuned 964 vs a run of the mil is a very different animal. So much can be done to these cars and buy an early engine car needing a rebuild at a good price and you have a car that has endless possibilities with a vintage look and great all around platform. It will never be a cup car but that isn't what these are about.
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Anthony PCA affiliate '77 member '83 '90 3.8 RS tribute, '93 964 C2, '93 928 GTS 5 speed, '94 Turbo 3.6, M '15 Boxster GTS18 Macan GTS
Gone worth mentioning '71 E '79 SC, '79 built to '74 3.0 RS tribute (2390 # 270 hp), '80 928 euro 5 speed, '74 2.0l 914, '89 944 S2,'04 Cayenne TT '14 boxster, '14 Cayenne GTS many others

Last edited by Cobalt; 06-29-2020 at 05:44 AM..
Old 06-29-2020, 05:38 AM
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Singer somehow turned this classic



into this atrocity which is already looking dated.



Yeah, looks like a fad to me.
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Old 06-29-2020, 12:40 PM
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^^^ all I can say is give me half the buy in and I can build one hell of a car with money left over. Not sure if these will be the Gemballa's of the future or what. No C&C's lately but before the virus I was seeing more singers than C2's and most of the guys I know who own them it is all about having the latest and not really being into the car. I liked the initial CGI better, although IMO better looking then the gen 1.

I'll take the black one and put the rest on a gift card Jack.
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Anthony PCA affiliate '77 member '83 '90 3.8 RS tribute, '93 964 C2, '93 928 GTS 5 speed, '94 Turbo 3.6, M '15 Boxster GTS18 Macan GTS
Gone worth mentioning '71 E '79 SC, '79 built to '74 3.0 RS tribute (2390 # 270 hp), '80 928 euro 5 speed, '74 2.0l 914, '89 944 S2,'04 Cayenne TT '14 boxster, '14 Cayenne GTS many others
Old 06-30-2020, 03:43 AM
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I’m with Cobalt. I think. In that the black one looks amazing. Much better than the white one. And yes I have extra periods. Today.
Tony
Old 06-30-2020, 05:50 AM
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Hi

People get all excited about hand built cars, when in fact machine built or robotic cars are much better.....long story unless a mechanical engineer like me. One difference is human mistakes can make and do make, a negative in building. Do not confuse a assembly worker hand installing parts vs. automatic assembly, and lastly Porsche had to quit the hand made car, itís not as profitable.

Anyway, the 964 was 80% different then the 911. Most was engine and body suspension. Thatís why it was not received well in 1989, because Porsche geeks on the surface of the car sees no real changes. But beyond that, most changes turn out to be positive, the 964 was not hand build, many robots were used and one of the big improvements was in paint thickness, body panel fit and precise welding and precision dies.....
Old 06-30-2020, 06:23 AM
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The 964 was still hand assembled somewhat similar to the earlier cars. Although a lot of improvements were made and some modern techniques employed. It was the 993 and boxster that saw the major change in how Porsche assembled cars and the mechanized assembly approach. Thanks to the help of Toyota they streamlined the process and reduced the cost by $5k a unit in 95. The 964 was the last of the 26 stage paint process and still done by hand AFAIK. Paint thicknesses varies considerably over the 993. I have metered hundreds of cars although only a handful were all original and I could see numbers as high as 9 and even 10 on original paint cars that had some factory rework done, although it was always a small area that peaked then dropped to 6-8mils. These were still being pulled out of rotation to fix human error although the end result was still of very high quality. I am currently removing the roof skin on my 93 C2 to install a factory sunroof delete panel. I made a fixture to match my cars rain gutters so I can replicate it exactly in case of issues during the install. I had a few 993's a couple of 964's and at least a half dozen or so never damaged early long nose tubs to check it against.

The 993's were all identical the 964 varied a bit but the early cars had considerable variation from tub to tub. I actually prefer the earlier cars assembly. They have a character to them that IMO the later cars lacked. The issue is fitting a part from one 964 or earlier 911 to another is always a challenge since they did vary. They used standards to check door gaps and other obvious parts of the cars but if the tub varied the door was made to fit it so another tub might not have varied so much and the gaps would be all wrong.

I appreciate these older cars for the care that went into assembling them and respect the tradesman who did such a fantastic job.
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Anthony PCA affiliate '77 member '83 '90 3.8 RS tribute, '93 964 C2, '93 928 GTS 5 speed, '94 Turbo 3.6, M '15 Boxster GTS18 Macan GTS
Gone worth mentioning '71 E '79 SC, '79 built to '74 3.0 RS tribute (2390 # 270 hp), '80 928 euro 5 speed, '74 2.0l 914, '89 944 S2,'04 Cayenne TT '14 boxster, '14 Cayenne GTS many others
Old 06-30-2020, 06:59 AM
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Let me preface my comment by stating I utilize a "paid" service.
Prices are flat. They have been since last year. As for the BAT sale, that's an outlier. Two people wanted the same car. That's what auctions are for. I don't buy at auctions. They are fun to watch but you will always pay too much.
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Old 07-01-2020, 03:12 AM
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Let me preface my comment by stating I utilize a "paid" service.
Prices are flat. They have been since last year. As for the BAT sale, that's an outlier. Two people wanted the same car. That's what auctions are for. I don't buy at auctions. They are fun to watch but you will always pay too much.
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Old 07-01-2020, 03:38 AM
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^^^When you say prices are flat are you considering the drop in quality of the current cars available vs what was sold for the same price a year ago. I was talking with a few people who sell the cream of the crop versions of these cars and the same complaint was there is very little worth buying out there right now vs a year ago.
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Anthony PCA affiliate '77 member '83 '90 3.8 RS tribute, '93 964 C2, '93 928 GTS 5 speed, '94 Turbo 3.6, M '15 Boxster GTS18 Macan GTS
Gone worth mentioning '71 E '79 SC, '79 built to '74 3.0 RS tribute (2390 # 270 hp), '80 928 euro 5 speed, '74 2.0l 914, '89 944 S2,'04 Cayenne TT '14 boxster, '14 Cayenne GTS many others
Old 07-01-2020, 03:56 AM
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The market is flat. My source uses auction data and 3 tiers of condition. Some are on a downward trend; The 2012 Boxster Spyder is one; that ship sailed.

An acquaintance who sells top notch pieces has had some difficulty "hitting the number" for a while. The premiums paid are smaller and yes, inventory isn't very good for vendors. I've watched quality go down on several sites. Yesterday, filet mignon; today we have hamburger.

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Old 07-01-2020, 04:47 AM
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