OK, my $0.02. ( I was in a meeting all morning over in Napa)

It looked real. I am NOT an expert by any means, but everything looked factory. well, mostly. Tim already menitoned the brakes and rear sway. Something else I saw that I thought was odd. the rear valence was fiberglass, but it had a cut out for a side exit exhaust, but the standard two pipes I would expect. Why would a factory valence be like this? In my mind, Porsche would have made the rear valence for THIS model, not a standard 911. true? The duck was indeed aluminum base with fiberglass duck. The engine sounds the part, deep, throaty rumble. Front torsion cover had what appeared to be a factory tow point (ring/loop). OK, what about this. He honked the horn to show that it was on the driver's side, an RS thing. True? not that it couldn't be moved. Also, the exhaust looked similar to SSIs, is that right?

I wish Tim and I knew more about these cars. We talked forever before asking for pics, but he was having any part of it. THAT to me, is the strangest part.

reserve is $180k.......


-Chris

I hope anyone who's serious about this car enlists an expert...the one that comes to mind first is John Starkey. I've been to his website and he definitely provides this service- authentication and valuation for RS/RSR's. His fee would be well worth at these prices when faced with the puzzling details on this thread.

maybe 406 was cut in half and both cars are actually "real."

Come on Todd, now you know that would make it a #203

Just opened this intriguing thread.

So far, are there any indisputable evidence at all suggesting this is NOT the real deal ?

I know little about this, but reading thru the various bbs threads I don't see anything from the inspection that verifies that is for sure a real RS, or excludes it for sure from being a real RS.

Did you examine any docs re the factory verifying the cars?
It's too bad you couldn't test the sheet metal too.


BTW, if somebody invites you onto their property but saqys no photos, don't take photos. It violates their privacy rights. That would be a tough tort from them to sue you on, and it's not clear if they would win much in $$, but it just isn't nice - it's not good behavior.

OTOH, if you are on public property you can take any photos you want pretty much - even if a person or car or polluting chemical plant is on private property. Env'l groups do this all the time to prove that a polluter was really polluting at a certain time.

Wish I had been able to talk to ryardds on this board prior to looking at it, but forgot to check my pm's.
owner did mention that the side script was put on later. The underisde to fenders front and rear were smooth no kind of coating.
Yes I do wish I had more knowledge of the RS.
He had a very nice book on the RS had about every stat. about them in great detail. english print. Need a hidden camera next time.....
#203 I like that plot line.

While this guy may be scum, some points used against this guy that are not necessarily valid include:
-separate auction for papers: sometimes ebay won't let you make changes after a certain time or if there are bidders
-recent ad for 12k euros in Germany: could easily be some other rip off artist
-Mercedes paperwork: could be dumb mistake--he would have no interest in attracting attention to an issue like this

As to the undercoating, lack of engine number pics, rudeness, etc, a case could easily be made which casts some reasonable doubt over his story and character.

depends where the cut/weld was. Maybe you'd get #102 and #304. We better check those two cars also.

I now understand the Japan comment. Obviously they started with one authentic RS then cut off little bits to incorporate into other cars. Car cloning. Or sorcerers apprenticing.

So, the mystery remains. Has the owner of the other 406 ever weighed in? For the record, I am the 2nd owner of 1972 911S coupe #1556, and you boys can take all the pics you'd like. But hey, not for sale. :)

False. I have an original '73 T with immaculate provenance - my dad bought it new from the dealer. It has the horns in the driver's side fender as well. I'm no expert, but maybe if everyone adds just a little knowledge, the truth will eventually come out. Then again, maybe not. Herr Doktor sounds pretty slick.

This is a fascinating thread.

If this is one of the early cars, then the proof is in the sheet metal, plain and simply. You can't replicate that, as far as I know.

-Wayne

He was also restoring an older mercedes, so perhaps that's the paperwork mix-up. He showed Tim some paperwork and all the car's numbers. Everything seemed to be legit, but again, I am no expert.....

But some things in his favor. He's an enthusiast. he had a 993 in the driveway, purchased in Germany and brought over. The extra engine in the garage, the mercedes project, seemingly had Pcar knowledge. Nothing on the car screamed fake......

what about the rear valence? I guess that could be a replacement with the re-spray, but still, it seemed strange to have a side cut out when you have a twin pipe car.

I did try pressing on the front fender, but was so scared that it would make a noise, I know I didn't give it enough pressure :(

Any other local Pcar guys want to go see it? Just outside of Healdsburg....


-Chris

Me too....I mean, IF I were to sell my car through a bidding process, I'd let folks look, prod, and photograph all they wanted. Well, there would be some rules on the prodding because I'd be worried about car damage. But the point is, I know I have the real thing, therefore nothing to hide. So, considering the $$$ this guy is hoping for, why is he being so damned furtive about it all?

I think he's afraid that someone will scam him. Here's a quote taken from the auction Q&A:

"Will only fax document for security purpose -last 4 digits will be not readable. I don't want these kind of docs.- even the layout floating around. REAL serious buyers will understand that. Document is part of the Sale to protect the High bidder, not to entertain the public. If you do have the RS book by Konradsheim look at the options of the vehicle and compare to my listing. "

Maybe he has the same fear if pictures are taken???

that RS book was cool. Had all of them listed by VIN and layed out the associated options. His car matched those options in the book. Didn't comfirm the LSD though.

Thinking back on this, I should have asked him to show me the thin metal. He was pretty casual with the car really. I mean, if that was my $200k car, nobody would touch it. He let us crawl all around it, top to bottom and helped Tim see the numbers everywhere. But no pics.

How do you ask to push the metal on a $200k car though?


Sure wish a local expert would go see it.

-Chris

So no smoking gun... Hope the new owner has at least as much knowledge than the money its gonna take to but this... whatever it is.

Details -- Details
 

I've been thinking about this, what sort of details would be hard to replicate, and so piciune that a person wouldn't bother. The earlier discussion about the number plate in the front trunk got me thinking. :rolleyes:

The font on the punch set that was used by Porsche to mark the plate in the front trunk. To me at least, it doesn't look like a common font -- at least for the US. But then the Germans have always had their funny way of making 1's and 7's. Is this a valid test? The way to test this would be:

1) Was it consistant across the time frame that we're interested in (ie. the early 70's)? Can we find examples among our cars that support or disprove this idea? RS's were made by Porsche (as opposed to Karmann I believe), so ideally we'd be looking for this. As a side note it would be interesting to know if Karmann also used the same font, or if Porsche numbered the chassis after it arrived for assembly.
2) If it was consistent, how does the font on the yellow car compare?

Some examples:

For discussions sake, my 1969E:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151608298.jpg

Now the black plate that was posted earlier:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151608337.jpg

Now the "Red plate" that was posted earlier:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151608370.jpg

And finally, the plate from the yellow subject of this thread:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151608412.jpg

It seems that the font is based on the proportions shown below.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151610450.jpg

The fifth digit on the yellow car's plate seems to not fit, although it might be the angle. It seems to eliptical rather then based on two tangent circles. It also seems to be out of line with the other digits. Note that in the other two examples, the digits all line up pretty even. In the black example, you can almost see a line which is tangent to the bottom of the digits. But the 6 in the fifth position from the left seem to be pretty clearly below the line.

If this is the case, did the factory usually paint over the number plate? Or was this done to mask the fact that it might be renumbered? Or was it just an honest repaint? It's not clear to me?

http://i21.ebayimg.com/01/i/07/7d/f9/c2_3.JPG

If you look at the cover to the smuggler's box, it sure looks like overspray to me...


PS: Regarding the rivited on ID plates at the front of the trunk, I noticed that in Starkey's book they show a 4 row plate from the RSR "911 460 0037", which incidentally says "Porsche AG" on it. Hmmm... :confused:

PPS: Cegerer -- my apologies. I just got around to reading the S-Registry thread and noticed that you made this same point yesterday. Since you're a real engineer (who Carroll Smith points out are smart), I'll take credit for being only 1 day behind you! SmileWavy

John,

I really noticed the 6s last night. They are indeed more eliptical on the bottom "o". Also, the 3 and 6 seem somewhat isolated, but not like the 3s on the black and red plates.........

The car WAS repainted, he told us that much. He also showed us first off where the front part of the trunk on the passenger side was repaired. he said that's partly how he knows this was his father's car since his dad hit a deer there. The story goes, bought when 3-4 years old, driven for a few, then sold. It changed hands several times over the years and then he had the chance to buy it back. He added the green.

Again, one thing I came away thinking was that everything sure seemed factory on that car.

-Chris

pwd72s and cerberus1, could you take a picture of the number plate in the front trunk of each of your cars, with a millimeter ruler underneath it for scale. It might help us to answer two questions:

- Are the charactors 5 through 11 evenly spaced as marked by the factory?
- Are they all tangent to a line?