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Quote:
Originally Posted by RatBox View Post
The numeral "9" (in Vins) , & "8" in motor or trans serial numbers - 99% of the time seem to have been used on the cars and engines / tranny's that were made for homologations of 100 units.
This is correct reason those numbers were used in the '76 Carrera 2.7. Another good example of this is the '74 RS (9114609XXX)

#084

Fahrzeuge | Mehne Automobiles
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Old 09-21-2010, 06:29 PM
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911 660 9030


COA for 911 660 9084

Both are still on mobile.de as can be seen the orange one is a wide body, I think the ad says it is an original factory M491 so possibly worth more? Suppose as it is a wide body could have been raced in the series the cars were originally homologated for.

The white one was advertised before at 125,000 euros and was previously for sale a couple of years ago at Sportwagen for 67,000 euros. The COA says 113 produced which I think is probably
correct as chassis nos 1-10 were not normally used.

Guy
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Last edited by GWhite; 09-23-2010 at 09:11 AM..
Old 09-22-2010, 08:17 AM
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GWhite,

Thx for posting those photo's (i still could not find them today) - I you want to post the other that would be great.

Concerning this widebody on 9084 , even though I know options can be left off the records , especially on these cars (the one i mentioned / light on DE records of Sunroof, electric windows, Auto heat control) . This wide body is a biggy. Even though it is plausible, without paperwork to me it is suspect. If it was mine, i'd be grilling the Factory hard for some verification. I'm not saying no, you'd just think there would be a record. Maybe it went to the SonderwŁnsche (if it was called that in 1975/6) dept. I think that was Rolf Sprenger's area. I know other cars that had options added in his dept. a few years earlier. And if things were added there , the factory has no records. You would have to have the actual invoices from the day.

ANOTHER anomaly concerning these cars concerns options also. (As far as I know) all these cars came with m220 / limited slip . Yet on every report I have seen - it is not listed. I have always surmised that it was because m220 was standard as part of the build on all the units of this model ?

On the statement I made regarding the "9" & "8" digits. It should have been

".... seem to have been used on the cars and engines / tranny's that were made for homologations of 100 units." OR LESS :



Last edited by RatBox; 09-22-2010 at 10:19 AM..
Old 09-22-2010, 09:51 AM
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RSG RSG is offline
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9030 is the orange wide body.
Price just reduced from 200k to 180k euros.
9084 at 250k euros...Mehne doubled their price overnight!.........fryardds put the link in his last post.
Both have LSD.

Last edited by RSG; 09-22-2010 at 11:55 AM..
Old 09-22-2010, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RatBox View Post

And furthur more, as to which was built first . Here's a statement I found awhile ago and saved by the late Warren Hall . Who normally seems to have had an inside track concerning information. And was usually very accurate in his statements/information :

(Warren Hall) :
"Well, it did happen in the fall of 1975! But, a hundred or so '76 Carrera 2.7 models were build at the beginning of the model run ... then later in the fall, the Carrera 3.0 debut was made ..."
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If Warren made a definative sounding statement like that . I'm tending to believe him. Unless someone comes up with some bulletproof information stating otherwise.

Some parts and pieces that have dates need to be examined on these cars to start figuring out the time frame of the builds (unless someone can get some more detailed info. from the factory).

Although , either way, built early in the year or late (or even in the middle or spread thruout) - I not quite sure how it would relate to WHY they were built .
Jurgen Barth in his Porsche Book agrees with the OP's statement that there were 123 made. However, the confusing thing is that he also lists a run of 30 targas, with overlapping vin numbers. He says that the coupes used 9000-9123. Then he says that the targas were within 9000-9130. I suspect that the correct answer is they made 130 cars total with the targas being only 7 of them. Probably the sort of cars that went to family members and special customers, much like Roger Penske's old RS spec targa from a couple of years prior to these cars.

He only shows this in the chart at the end of the chapter with a footnote annotation that says they were special editions. There is no mention at all of these cars in the chapter on 1974-1977 911s and Carreras.
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Old 09-24-2010, 11:45 AM
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The chassis numbers were....
Coupe 9116609001 to 9123
Targa 9116619001 to 9030

These 30 Targas used the 911S narrow body and were for the Belgian Police.
Old 09-24-2010, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSG View Post
The chassis numbers were....
Coupe 9116609001 to 9123
Targa 9116619001 to 9030

These 30 Targas used the 911S narrow body and were for the Belgian Police.
Thanks for the clarification. I have seen so many typos in Barth's book over the years, and my copy is the second edition where you think those things would be caught,(though I may have read it wrong last night and will double check). But there's all kinds of little discrepancies in that book when it comes to things like vins, type numbers, production numbers, etc etc. However, it's pretty good for some of these more obscure cars and details at the same time.
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Old 09-24-2010, 01:07 PM
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Matt,

Check out these 2 posts by a Dutch member on the Early S forum who has one of Carrera 2,7 Targas. He has photos of the narrow body Targas built for the Dutch police in '76 using the 911/83 engines. He mentions 30 in the first post and then mentions 20 in the second post which is a typo no doubt.

Early 911S Registry Bulletin Board - View Single Post - European police Targas

Early 911S Registry Bulletin Board - View Single Post - Porsche Special use cars Police fire etc
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Old 09-24-2010, 02:28 PM
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Brian
These targas were for the Belgian police, not the Dutch.
BTW Xenifizi is/was in Belgium.
Sorry to labour the point.
Old 09-24-2010, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSG View Post
The chassis numbers were....
Coupe 9116609001 to 9123
Targa 9116619001 to 9030

These 30 Targas used the 911S narrow body and were for the Belgian Police.
So I just checked. Barth missed the bolded 1 in his chart. He listed it as a 0, like I thought. Good to know the right answer. Thank you.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:23 PM
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Brian
These targas were for the Belgian police, not the Dutch.
BTW Xenifizi is/was in Belgium.
Sorry to labour the point.
Oops, you are so right. Thanks for the correction.
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Old 09-25-2010, 05:34 PM
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OK, sorry about my confusion between 9030 & 9084 (and thx for pointing out the link to 9084/ Mehne. I did not realise what it was prior, thus I did not look).

I do not understand why the factory is consistantly so light on correct options as delivered on these models ? As we can see on (white / Menhe) 9084 even If you factor out the side Carrera stripes , not knowing if they were there originally , or added durring the repaint. The car was obviously delivered with sport seats , yet they are not on the DE Factory report (and since a DE produced report , we cannot postulate any theories concerning inproper tranlations as with U.S. COA's). We cannot be 100% certain they were not added, but I would think were expensive items when purchased over the counter, and the advertisement states orig. interior. The scant option info. by the factory must have a relationship concerning this specific model.

As far as the 113 vs. 123, I believe it is the various report writers at the Factory's definition of whether to include "pre-production" versions (one one report i've seen "123 produced" was typed, then crossed out and "113" hand written in. On the DE report of 9084 , again 113 ) . The first produced examples of a model it seems were often retained by the Factory for various duties (i'm assuming mostly in relation to testing of one form or another). I believe that even examples that were given/used by executives (& including the Porsche & Piech family) were basically "reviewed" by them for the factory. I do not know about earlier time frames, but in the 70's - on, it seems to be normally around the first 10 or a few higher (obviously less on a very low production model like a 911R or a 911SCRS , etc.).

The earliest existing example I know of is 660 9028 .

I would bet that the Carrera badge on the rear deck lid was added at a later date on 9084 , but this is just a guess.

Last edited by RatBox; 09-26-2010 at 10:33 AM..
Old 09-26-2010, 10:14 AM
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I believe the standard spec was....
sport seats
manual windows
non tinted glass
LH mirror only
welded in plate for rollbar
no headlight washers
no sunroof
no aircon
no el. thermostatic heating
less soundproofing
Old 09-26-2010, 03:04 PM
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What's standard on a car of which the majority that were built have features that are normally "options" - yet a large amount of said "options" on virtually every known example are not recorded in factory records ? (And there are no brochures or factory sales literature, OR seemingly Factory literature of any type in existence PERIOD !) Pretty difficult to take a hard stand on what's standard on these.

I've looked around at these cars for the last 20 plus years (granted , the bulk in the last 5 with the advent of the internet getting more popular).

And 90% plus of the ones that still exist have standard seats (and originally came that way) .

The only things that seem to be "standard" are :

911/83 motor

911/43 trans with limited slip

Fat grip 3 spoke steering wheel (did 1976 Carr. 3.0's come with these ?)

Drivers side only elect. adj. mirror (same as 1976 Carr. 3.0)

No whaletail (although in a 1976 model year line up catalog I have, it shows the Carrera 3.0 sans rear wing in the brochure. I do not know if this is standard or not for the 3.0. But I do know that in 1974 & 1975 , a rear tail on a Carrera 2.7 was a cost item. I believe it would be the same in 1976. I know it was in the UK market for a fact)

Roll Bar mounting spots

Manual roll up windows (I think standard - but many have elect windows)

7 & 8 x 15 Fuchs with 215/60-VR15 (rear) , 185/70-VR15 (front) tires. (Standard on Carr. 3.0 was 6 & 7 x 15 cookie cutters. Just as they were on early 911SC's)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as tinted windows & less sound proofing. I have never looked hard on the 1976 Carr. 2.7's to notice if windows were tinted or not . But tinted windows were an option on a 1976 Carr. 3.0.

And I have never compared one vs. another concerning sound proofing

Last edited by RatBox; 09-26-2010 at 11:13 PM..
Old 09-26-2010, 06:31 PM
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All these unique items are consistant with the ones I have seen and been told about and I would add clear glass to that list as being standard on these cars unless tinted glass was ordered.
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Old 09-27-2010, 12:33 PM
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http://www.autoscout24.eu/Details.aspx?id=v3dnubahqmff

This is for sale in France at the moment, reckoned to be one of the narrow bodied Belgian Police Targas.

Guy
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Old 09-28-2010, 08:21 AM
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Very Neat ! Thx for posting.

I'm not sure what to think about this Targa without knowing more information.

I'd like to hear what xenifizi thinks (or knows) about this one.

His is one of the Belgian Police Targa's (one of 2 only surviving - as per his knoledge) , and from reading his post. It seems he has gone to great lengths for originality in his restoration.

His is white with stainless Targa cover band, no paint coded covers over H4 chrome rings, and cookie cutters. And obviously the orange Targa does not have any of the Police/Emergency equipment . Unless this orange one in france has been changed. It was probably not one of the Belgian Police cars.

Maybe originally to an insider ? (the orange Targa in France).

Also on the orange Targa, I see one thing that I do not believe is factory: a front lip spoiler without a rear whaletail. One was not designed to be used without the other, they were 'always' (i don't like to use this word - but it seems applicable here....I'll qualify this statement , this is what my experience has been/seen) fitted as a package.


Last edited by RatBox; 09-28-2010 at 05:25 PM..
Old 09-28-2010, 05:07 PM
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I enquired of the man at Porsche Classic whether chassis 911 660 9030 was a factory wide body but it appears not.

It was supplied by Glockler, Frankfurt in Contnental Orange with black leatherette and tweed interior. (Black bucket race seats now fitted) Options were M 440 manual aerial and speakers in the front door and M 481 5 speed gearbox.

He says no wide body and no LSD although as previously discussed this was probably a standard item on the 915/43 gearbox.

Guy
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Old 09-29-2010, 05:42 AM
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I was very curious about the '76 Carrera Targa so I sent off a message to the seller about the VIN and engine serial #. Here is his response.

"Hello,



Chassis number : 911 661 9026

Engine : 666 806 (is a special number direct factory Porsche)

Is not a 2.7L 210cv, is a 3LRS 230ch , engine original"


The engine # he gives is not complete as it should have 7 digits. Seems someone has upped the displacement also. According to the VIN it is one of the Carrera Targa from '76.
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Old 09-29-2010, 06:45 PM
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If anyone comunicates with him again. I'd be just as interested in what documentation he has of it being an ex- Belgian Gendarme vehicle (if any).

Again , we know how one would normally look, so what is the explanation of the differences. I would assume any fleet order by the Belgian government would mean the build of all examples would be the same. It must have been color changed. And unless all the pieces that had Gendarme equipment attached have been changed out, there would be some evidence (holes from extra equipment attaching points). If a BE Gendarme, I'm sure the factory has records (they have records of where cars went , even post 1969. They just rarely give them out. At least not in the normal written inquiry system).

And 3.0 barrels and pistons on a 2.7 mag case, i guess , if he's correct on his displacement info.. How long will that hold together. Alot of people speak of the 2.8's being hard enough on a mag case. Or maybe it's O.K. , as 2.8's were high compression , & RS 3.0's were low ? I just looked again at the photo supplied on autoscout, and it sure looks like a mag case.

This reminds me of another related topic. If this orange targa was some kind of a special factory build with a later built (than 1974 MY, or even if a leftover 1974 MY built) 3.0 mech. injected motor, I believe it would have to have an Aluminum case. There IS at least one 1976 Carrera that was built with a 3.0 mech. injected motor. It was built and given to Ferry Porsche. I have not been able to determine if it was a normal Carrera 3.0 chassis (sequential 0XXX) , or a one of the 123 (9XXX) chassis. And if it was single or twin plug, and which of the 2 mech. injection types it had (RS or RSR). It is a dark green car , and still exists. It is most likely a OXXX chassis, as it was not used for homologation. Just as 1974 IROC RS 3.0's don't have the "9" digit in the sequential. But you never know. If anyone knows which of the two chassis's (or even better - a serial no. , along with eng. no., and possibly engine spec. , &/ or type no.) on this Ferry P. car ?


(Ferry's 1976) :


Last edited by RatBox; 09-30-2010 at 07:55 AM..
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