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I think this is the car that 'RatBox' is refering to and which was presented to Ferry by the factory for his 65th birthday. It was for sale last year and the VIN was quoted as 911 560 0032 so is a 1975 m.y. Carrera 2.7 chassis


The engine number is 666 1281 and is clearly K jetronic but there was a document produced in the sales literature indicating that the car was registered in July 1974 wheras the engine number relates to a Carrera 3 (although shown with 11 blade fan) that was produced well into 1976 so cannot be the original.



There was also another car advertised last year with VIN 911 560 0043 and suposedly belonging to Dr Furrmann with a 'versuchsmotor' No 666 0010. Here is the COA showing a capacity of 2956cc rather than the 2993 of the C3 production engine, but again it has K Jet.



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Old 09-30-2010, 10:35 AM
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Wow, that is cool Carrera. Check out the seats. A good friend in Chicago has an Oak Green '76 Carrera 2,7 (9076) with a 2.9L MFI engine (non-original case).

Heard back from the seller of the Targa. The engine serial # is 6668057. He also stated in the email that it was not restored to the original white w/ orange for esthetic concerns. Instead it was restored to look more like a '76 Targa would look with a black Targa bar. He didn't mention anything about documentation with the car.
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Last edited by fryardds; 09-30-2010 at 11:44 AM..
Old 09-30-2010, 11:40 AM
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Gwhite,

Thx for posting the info. and photo's on the two 'special' / insider / "versuchsmotor" 3.0 L - 1975 Carrera's.

This clears up Ferry's birthday present car. And the "RSR" motor referance , from an internet article which I had read too much into. I had assumed the author was mistaken and it was a RS 3.0 motor versas a RSR 3.0. But I see that It was probably just a referance to the origins of the 3 liter. And now thx to you, I see it is a (fairly) standard - at least from the outside, 3.0 CIS motor. Which makes more sense for Ferry at this age. They also said "it LOOKS like a 1976 production 911" , I should have caught that . Now that i look at it again , when I read "Ferry Porsche...... was given this car....... by the Weissach factory on his 65th birhday in 1974" . I should have realised it could not be a 1976 model. It would be one year too early for that. The painted flag mirror also pushed me towards thinking it was a 1976.

And I notice something else from your photo's - look at the engine stamping, see how it does not have the stars. I'd been trying to tell some people in the past that on alot of the special stuff (race & pre-production / research) . Stampings that have no stars , are upside down , & double strikes can be original (and normally are) . At the area's that this stuff was assembled, as long as the people involved knew what it was. And could find & read the stampings, that was all that mattered.

Here's a copy of the internet article from which I learned of 911 560 0032 (Jelenek.blogspot.com) , I had been searching for 1976 carrera references :




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And thx for the update Fryardds. I guess the french Targa owner mistyped the motor number prior.

But he obviously does not know what a RS 3.0 motor actually is , although I'm sure he's well meaning. As the terms RS 3.0 & original really do not fit together with a mag case.

He needs to locate the type number stamping - that will tell the story. I would be curious to see the type stampings of 560 0032 & 560 0043 , to see it they had the normal 1976/77 3.0 CIS type number (or even have one's at all). I know of a very early 1974 911/83 motor (one of the first few built) that has no stars & also no type number. It's stamping is SUPER light/faint & has double strikes. It also had one 7R half paired with a 5R.

Last edited by RatBox; 09-30-2010 at 07:32 PM..
Old 09-30-2010, 04:20 PM
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Some more photos of Ferry's car




And of 911 560 0043




Guy
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Old 10-01-2010, 01:21 AM
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Wow,

Talk about high end interior's (both cars). From the scant photo's I have, I had assumed the interior on Ferry's car was either the light tan or cork (what would be a common match to dark green) with tan tartan. And matching tartan door panel/side panels (F & R) are definately SonderwŁnsche, as the standard tartan interior option only comes with the front seat inserts (not even the rear seats).

Does anyone know - on the Dr. Ernst Fuhrmann car , i'm assuming the quilted seat insert pattern is original ? Is that described on that report (along with the color matching yellow leather shifter boot ?) , i don't read german. Also are we assuming the 1978 MY 3.3 Style Rear spoiler was originally fitted & developed in fall of 1974 pre-production - or was that added later ? (if it was around in fall of 1974 I would think it would have been used by at least 76 MY. But we know it did not get used till 78 MY).

In trying to see if the report gives any clues on the tail . I know "heckspoiler" is rear spoiler (whaletail) . But when I try to translate the full term listed : "Heckspoiler Radhauser Schwarz" . I'm getting - Black wheel arch spoiler ?

Did this car get sold ? Did you pick this one up for yourself Gwhite ?

PS - check out the second pic down of the last post (this is a period photo of Ferry's 0032 ?) . If so you can see that the painted flag mirror was not originally installed, it must have been developed later and added when the 3.0 motor was (I would think the same with the Fuhrmann car) . And on Fuhrmann's 0043, notice the front bumper. This must have been changed out as I see the later style (not introduced till 1980 MY ) headlight washers.

Somewhere , floating around , might be either of the 2 original 911/83 motors for these cars (i'm postulating that the probability is that this is what both of these cars were originally built with in the fall of 1974. Then changed out to the 3.0 CIS's sometime later the following year).

Last edited by RatBox; 10-01-2010 at 10:27 AM..
Old 10-01-2010, 09:28 AM
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Hi 'RatBox'

Unfortunately '0043' was advertised at 125,00 euros so a bit beyond what I have to spend although the bright yellow interior isn't to my taste anyway and the 3.3 turbo type tail doesn't to my mind go with he slimmer Carrera body. The car is no longer on mobile.de where it was advertised but don't know if it sold. As you say the engines were probably not the originals as fitted to these cars in June/July 1974 as both have engines number commencing '666'' indicating a six cylinder engine, Carrera spec and 1976 model year.

The period photo of Ferry's car reminds me of this one that the original owner supplied me of my own Carrera 2.7 taken in 1974 or 1975 on it's original Belgian plate before it was UK registered in 1976. The original owner specified that the standard 'Durant' drivers door mirror not be fitted and AFN fitted the wing mirrors as seen instead.



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Last edited by GWhite; 10-01-2010 at 11:10 AM..
Old 10-01-2010, 11:07 AM
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#0043 is for sale here
SWS - Sportwagen Service France
Old 10-01-2010, 01:13 PM
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Great thread......
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Old 10-01-2010, 05:20 PM
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Hi Gwhite,

I actually think the black hooded Mirrors are neat. Did those stay with the car ?

I see those mirrors used on alot of Privateer 1974 RSR & RS 3.0's (Factory built & private built cars - obviously added on the Factory cars) in period photo's. In your period photo I cannot see the stem which is obviously there however raising the drivers side taller than the passenger side. I quess it is blending into the background.

Since you mention your car living bin Belgium at one time early in it's life. Was it a Belgian delivery ?

As this reminds me of something.

In the rear, from it seemingly not being there in the period photo . Can I assume that your car was not ordered with a ducktail ?


If it was a BE/Luxumbourg delivery. I wish it was a rear spoiler ordered car (or the ducktail was around if taken off) , as then I would have a bit more info. regarding the weird wire mesh ducktails (as the one on 460 0781 - a BE/Lux delivery). If you don't have a photo of it , i'm posting one now. But in looking at this tail with the wire mesh on 0781. You can tell the wire mesh was not easily put in there, it was either built that way originally . Or it would have had to have been completely deconstructed and put back together.

This and the fact that from reading a comment on it , stating at least one more like it has been found. It leads me to believe either the Factory built it that way for some Belgian/Lux mandate ? Or D'Ieteren Freres (the Belgian & i'm assuming Lux - importer/distributors - took them apart , added the mesh and reassembled).

But obviuosly , if they knew it was required , it makes alot more sense (and would be alot easier) . If they specified it to Porsche and it was done prior to delivery by the factory.

There cannot have been many 1974 Carrera's delivered to BE/Lux. Anyone know anything about the wire mesh Duck's ? And the probable BE/Lux connection ?

Anyone seen one on any BE/Lux delivered 1973 Carrera's ? (I think only 10 or 11 were BE/Lux factory deliveries). Although IF a BE governmental safety mandate of some sort. The chances are that it was not even thought about until after any 73's with ducktails were delivered, spotted & examined. And someone decided something about having fiberglass alone covering the engine was not safe enough. And thus, from real world time lag , not mandated and implimented till the next year ?

Any wire mesh Whaletails ever seen ?

If anyone has any info. , I would love to hear it as I find these strange oddities fascinating. I suppose the easiest way would be to speak to someone at D'Ieteren who might have been around then. But I would think Porsche would know also ? But it was along time ago, and if this is the case. A very low volume item. I just find the construction too tidy and why would any private people bother. And knowing that you cannot bend wire mesh to jam in there. And then have it become flat to the surface like that afterward near the edges. That's how I know the mesh was added to the fiberglass shell, without the metal insert installed. This kind of extra work would not be done if it was not a requirement in some regard.

Thx for posting your period Photo. I really love the period stuff . And sometimes it's the only way to figure details out as to how they actually were.



Last edited by RatBox; 10-02-2010 at 01:25 PM..
Old 10-02-2010, 12:46 PM
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Not much help at all, but my Carrera was supplied by D'Ieteren in May '74 to the first owner in Brussels.
Not sure what engine lid it came with originally as the one on the car since '83 is a f/g ducktail.
As D'Ieteren were famous coachbuilders and supplied Porsche with 356 bodies
it's possible that these wire mesh ducktails were made by them.

Last edited by RSG; 10-02-2010 at 02:09 PM..
Old 10-02-2010, 01:57 PM
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Hi ratbox,

Glad you like the period photo, the car was actually supplied by AFN in England to a lady who worked at the EEC in Brussels at the time and so was initially registered there. There is however a second chassis plate that was added by D'Iteren. She originally ordered a '73 RS but was later informed that they were all sold and had to wait for a '74 model. As a rear window wiper was specified in the options the car came without a ducktail although UK supplied cars usually came with one as standard. I also believe that cars with metallic paintwork were supplied with a flat engine lid due to problems matching the paintwork on the fibre glass spoiler. I am thus unable to help with the mystery of the mesh reinforced spoiler. The car does not have the wing mirrors any longer but having spoken to the first owner they were still on there when she sold the car in about 1991. It was also good to hear that even now in her eighties she drives a Carrera 3.2



RSG,

You obviously are very knowledgable and I did speculate on who you are, D'Iteren supplied '74 Carrera confirms it though.

Guy
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:21 AM
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You two might already have this photo. But in case you don't , here's a copy for your files :






Gwhite,

I'm confused. So then your car is RHD & was an original U.K. delivery, then shipped / imported to Belgium through D'Ieteren ? Or it never touched ground in the U.K. initially.

Either way , that seems pretty uncommon , was that handled by AFN or privately by the owner ? Or is it that she just took it there and registered it. If that's the case, I would not have thought D'Ieteren would have badged it . But I do not have any idea of the procedures in BE. In general though, normally , used cars ( no matter if recently aquired new) driven into BE and registered would not have anything to do with the countries importer D'Ieteren would they ? I believe normally in any country, the importer is only dealing with cars it's dealers have ordered (or it's dealers customers special orders). Or maybe it's a like "tourist delivery" from the factory , only in stead of picking up at the factory , it's delivered to another countries importer ? (Ordered in U.K, to U.K spec but delivered to Belgium to D'Ieteren, thus they badged it ?).

I just think it's funny that if a U.K spec car, that D'Ieteren baged it.

If you know the scenario and don't mind explaining , my curiousity is obviously piqued.

Last edited by RatBox; 10-03-2010 at 02:52 PM..
Old 10-03-2010, 02:12 PM
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Hi RatBox,

I'm not certain of the prcedures in 1974 but I have all the documentation from the time.
The vehicle was ordered as a 'Tourist Delivery' (The owner was with the EEC Commision with an address in Brussels at the time) with AFN on 1st October 1973 and was obviously delivered to AFN as it passed through Dover on 13th December 1973.
It was assigned a 'Q' plate (I presume this is a temporary plate before the car was exported) and then a 'Certificate of Conformity' by D'Ieteren on 23rd April 1974 and I assume this was when the plate was added.


Hope this helps,

Guy
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Last edited by GWhite; 10-04-2010 at 09:28 PM..
Old 10-04-2010, 02:41 AM
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interesting thread. mine came with front spoiler and tail w/o second grill. tail has the "Carrera" script on it but it is a decal. 911 660 9120 motor 6668153. lefthand electric mirror, no sunroof, no a/c, although I do have a rear wiper.
Old 10-05-2010, 03:42 PM
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Hi g911,

Good to see the owner of one of the '76 Carrera 2.7's joining in on the thread, sounds like the value of your car might have gone up since the thread started.

The 'Carrera' script always was a stick-on decal, have you obtained a COA from Porsche to determine the original specification? and does your car have a LSD and non-tinted glass?

It would be much appreciated if you could post some photographs so we can see what it looks like.

Thanks,

Guy
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Old 10-06-2010, 01:52 AM
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Since 660 9120 has motor 6668153 , and this should/could/would theoretically be the last 1976 911/83 motor ....

123 coupes plus 30 targas.

If anyone has the right Factory connections. I would be curious to know if there are any higher number motors recorded built .

Also g911,

when you say there is a Carrera decal on your tail. Is the tail original paint ?

And if so, what's the decal look like ? (Carrera letters same size/font as on a 73 ducktail , only without the "RS" ?).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gwhite,

In my experience, the only stick-on Carrera rear badges i've seen were the larger font style 1984 MY - on. The earlier had pins on the back side (same with 911SC).

But if you've seen some of the earlier , smaller , "Carrera" or "Carrera 3.0" badges which were stick-on ?

chime in

Last edited by RatBox; 10-11-2010 at 11:14 AM..
Old 10-11-2010, 11:10 AM
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Hi RatBox,

I have attached a photo of the badges I have to put on my '74 Carrera, one for the flat lid and one for the duck. They are both as you say smaller font than the 3.2 Carrera ones. The decal one is listed in the '74 to '77 parts catalogue as for a Carrera with spoiler lid (no years stated and also doesn't say specifically Carrera 2.7 ) and also comes in gold.

I have come cross the decal one usually on the upper right corner of a ducktail but have also seen the 'Carrera RS' decal as listed for the 1973 Carrera used.

It would be interesting to see if 'g911' has his decal on a ducktail or whaletail and where it is. positioned.

Incidentaly one thing I have not seen on a 1976 Carrera is the '2.7' badge on the engine grill.



Guy
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:08 PM
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Well let see if I can post a picture. Got to find the car its buried in the garage somewhere.
Old 10-15-2010, 12:38 PM
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Hi g911
Interesting pic!
Do you have any more?
As you now know this is a rare car and potentially very valuable.
I see from the old "1975 Carrera" thread that you've owned it since 1989.
Old 10-15-2010, 02:07 PM
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NICE !

Thx for the pic , g911.


Now that I see one in the flesh (a decal emblem - on a proper tail - on a 1976 911/83 car).

I'm sure it probably is an original set-up (the tail & emblem , and to that chassis) as most folks would not even know a decal emblem was available (I didn't & i'm pretty attuned) . And ESPECIALLY since it seems to be an original rear wiper optioned car to boot ! ... but ...

Can you tell , if the cars been repainted (most importantly for this issue of emblems - the rear) ? And can you check the inside of the tail just for GP - to see that no pin type emblem holes are there and been filled ?

And even though I would not necessarily judge it as not orig. , if porsche records did not mention spoilers (or rear window wiper) on a report for this car (i'm leary of the acuracy of their reports on this model , even with a DE written/produced report) . Do you happen to have a report to know what they list for original options ?

Also , is there a front rubber lip spoiler present , or evidence there ever was one if not ?

Thx again for posting the photo.

Last edited by RatBox; 10-16-2010 at 06:32 AM..
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