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I think these days a 964 goes for more than a 993 if low mileage and the 3.2 is equal if low mileage. I was at a specialist dealer the other day and the low mile 964's were about 10k more that the 993's. Even bigger margin for the wide body 964's.
Old 08-22-2014, 03:39 PM
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Although the 993 may be the best driving air cooled car I think in years to come the 964 and SC/Carrera will be worth more. The 993 doesn't have the same character and styling appeal to collectors IMHO. All will appreciate of course but by different amounts. Doesn't the 993 also have much higher production numbers?

Also agree on prices: look at Holts website and his blue 1993 964 is priced above a 1996 blue 993 both with about 50k miles.
Old 08-22-2014, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by whiterabbit View Post
Doesn't the 993 also have much higher production numbers?
Yep, the 964 was generally considered to be a rather unattractive car so they didn't sell many. It boggles my mind that 964's are selling for more than 993's. What that tells me is that the collectors are now driving the market more than the enthusiasts. The latter almost always gravitate toward the 993. However the former will care more about rarity than driving experience.

Not trashing the 964 at all; they're decent cars. But they have long since been considered the red headed step child of the air cooled 911 family. Again, take a look at the sales figures. Also, recall that, until very recently, one could grab a 964 for super cheap compared to a 993 or even a 3.2.
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Old 08-22-2014, 04:43 PM
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Exactly, I remember the 3.6 turbo, they couldn't give them away in '94 even with a 17k discount.
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Old 08-22-2014, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX1166 View Post
Yep, the 964 was generally considered to be a rather unattractive car so they didn't sell many. It boggles my mind that 964's are selling for more than 993's. What that tells me is that the collectors are now driving the market more than the enthusiasts. The latter almost always gravitate toward the 993. However the former will care more about rarity than driving experience.

Not trashing the 964 at all; they're decent cars. But they have long since been considered the red headed step child of the air cooled 911 family. Again, take a look at the sales figures. Also, recall that, until very recently, one could grab a 964 for super cheap compared to a 993 or even a 3.2.
You've got to take into account that the economy wasn't great when the 964 was introduced and sales of sports cars in the late 80s-early 90s fell off a cliff. Add to the fact that the 964 looked very similar to the previous ~2 decades worth of P-cars and had "tacked on, huge plastic bumpers". It wasn't new enough for the people that wanted an all-new 911, and it looked too much like an afterthought (or too soft compared to the previous models) to sell to the usual Porsche customer. Rock and a couple hard places..
But what do I know, I was 9 when they were first sold.

But this thread is about 993s and their hefty appreciation curve. I dig the 993 but I wouldn't fall over myself to own one. I was going to buy one, but when the time came I realized that I liked the 964 much more. I also think it's the pinnacle of the air-cooled cars (although not necessarily the "best")
Certainly polarizing for Porsche heads but I think the tide is turning if it hasn't already.
Old 08-22-2014, 05:40 PM
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Looks like the mid year refresh of the 964 is now the new stepchild of the air cooled era. We should get used to 993's being the "bargain" classic. Not trashing 993's they are decent cars, but the market has spoken clearly. The carp like front end of a 993 does not help matters much.

On a side note, does it seem like 996 turbo prices are still searching for a bottom? There's a guards red that is calling me and every month the price drops $500.
Old 08-22-2014, 05:49 PM
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996 turbos are the bargain of the century! They will creep up once aircooled cars are out of reach for buyers that want to drive and enjoy a porsche.
Old 08-23-2014, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterabbit View Post
Although the 993 may be the best driving air cooled car I think in years to come the 964 and SC/Carrera will be worth more. The 993 doesn't have the same character and styling appeal to collectors IMHO. All will appreciate of course but by different amounts. Doesn't the 993 also have much higher production numbers?

Also agree on prices: look at Holts website and his blue 1993 964 is priced above a 1996 blue 993 both with about 50k miles.
I live about ten minutes from Holt and have watched closely over the years. Your observation is spot on IMHO.

Horses for courses- my 996 comment was semi-serious. The styling is clearly inferior to the previous (air cooled) generations, but I do think there's something to be said about paying attention to what others dismiss.

While picking up my car from Woodlawn Garage yesterday, there was a 993 TT (w/23K!) parked next to a 996 GT2. Striking difference, but both feel like weapons.

A 964 had puked it's guts and caused quite a mess on the shop floor. Hmm...
Old 08-23-2014, 04:02 AM
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Buy those 993's until the cows come home…
Any air-cooled Porsche is a valuable Porsche these days.
The 993's were the last. Forget about style, performance, weight etc. Doesn't matter.
Just like land, they're not making any more.
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Old 08-23-2014, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX1166 View Post
Yep, the 964 was generally considered to be a rather unattractive car so they didn't sell many. It boggles my mind that 964's are selling for more than 993's. What that tells me is that the collectors are now driving the market more than the enthusiasts. The latter almost always gravitate toward the 993. However the former will care more about rarity than driving experience.

Not trashing the 964 at all; they're decent cars. But they have long since been considered the red headed step child of the air cooled 911 family. Again, take a look at the sales figures. Also, recall that, until very recently, one could grab a 964 for super cheap compared to a 993 or even a 3.2.
Fail.

1st watch this - it's what most of us are about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_SBZ6YoVzA

2nd buy this - next months addition of '911 & Porsche World Magazine'....
Old 08-23-2014, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Porsche964FP View Post
Fail.

1st watch this - it's what most of us are about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_SBZ6YoVzA

2nd buy this - next months addition of '911 & Porsche World Magazine'....
Again, not trashing the 964 so no need for the 964 fanatics to get themselves in a lather. I like the 964 and almost bought one myself.

What you're 'about' is immaterial with respect to the hard facts I pointed out and the topic at hand. 964's we're not a success in terms of sales (demand) for Porsche. Sure, the economy was crap but any improvement between 1994 and 1995 was a small fraction of the increase in demand for the 1995 Carrera vs. the 1994. And, until recently, their market value trailed that of the 3.2 and 993 by a healthy margin. Hence my red headed step child comment. For the 964 to suddenly be valued at or above the 993 (or 3.2) means there has been a significant change in what's driving the market. I was throwing out my $.02 on what I thought might be the driver.
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Old 08-23-2014, 07:18 AM
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Are you kidding? - Rennlist Discussion Forums
Old 08-23-2014, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX1166 View Post
Yep, the 964 was generally considered to be a rather unattractive car so they didn't sell many. It boggles my mind that 964's are selling for more than 993's. What that tells me is that the collectors are now driving the market more than the enthusiasts. The latter almost always gravitate toward the 993. However the former will care more about rarity than driving experience.

Not trashing the 964 at all; they're decent cars. But they have long since been considered the red headed step child of the air cooled 911 family. Again, take a look at the sales figures. Also, recall that, until very recently, one could grab a 964 for super cheap compared to a 993 or even a 3.2.

True enthusiasts and experts, at one time a minority, have known for many years the worthwhile driving experience, value, and ownership satisfaction a 964 has to offer. No offense, but some of your comments are a bit out of date.

They are however, very unattractive, it took Porsche 30 years but they finally got the message.

(BTW, Id love a 993 in addition to my 64.)




Old 08-23-2014, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by RacerX1166 View Post
the hard facts I pointed out and the topic at hand.
I'm not disputing your 'history lesson' regarding 964s being undersold, born into a recession, bad press, early model issues. Despite your history being true you've brushed on it with more superficiality than a whores knockers. But that's another story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX1166 View Post
collectors are now driving the market more than the enthusiasts. The latter almost always gravitate toward the 993. However the former will care more about rarity than driving experience.
What I dispute is your comment regarding 964 owners being collectors, not enthusiasts and that we care more about rarity than driving experience.

As before, below is an example of how we are enthusiasts and care for the driving experience.

1st watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_SBZ6YoVzA

2nd buy this - next months addition of '911 & Porsche World Magazine'....

Last edited by Porsche964FP; 08-25-2014 at 02:20 AM..
Old 08-25-2014, 02:13 AM
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What I dispute is your comment regarding 964 owners being collectors, not enthusiasts and that we care more about rarity than driving experience.
And exactly where did I make that assertion? If you read my post and the ones that led up to it, you'd know I didn't.

You've got your panties in a bunch over something I never said.

Anyway, nice to know my opinions are so highly thought of that they spawned a 3+ page thread on RL. Time to start cashing in on that somehow.

What strikes me is that so many have an issue understanding past and present tense, with respect to comments I made on the topic.
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Old 08-25-2014, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1166 View Post
and exactly where did i make that assertion? If you read my post and the ones that led up to it, you'd know i didn't.
=

Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1166 View Post
collectors are now driving the market more than the enthusiasts. The latter almost always gravitate toward the 993. However the former will care more about rarity than driving experience.
Old 08-25-2014, 02:00 PM
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It boggles my mind that when someone makes a self-serving comment using convenient information they get bent when the inaccuracies are pointed out to them
Old 08-25-2014, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Porsche964FP View Post


Originally Posted by racerx1166
and exactly where did i make that assertion? If you read my post and the ones that led up to it, you'd know i didn't.


=

Originally Posted by racerx1166
collectors are now driving the market more than the enthusiasts. The latter almost always gravitate toward the 993. However the former will care more about rarity than driving experience.
Nope.

He made a distinction between collectors and enthusiasts. And, in addition, he was including the entire 911 community, not just 964 owners.

Of course, this is in context. If you remove context, you can make quotes sound completely different than their obvious intent in context.
Old 08-25-2014, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Porsche964FP View Post
.

=
Just to be clear, you believe that current owners drive the 964 (or 993, 3.2, etc.) market(s)? Because I would think that prospective / new buyers would drive any market based upon their demand, maximum price threshold, and all that other stuff I can't remember from macro economics classes. Maybe I've been wrong all these years and it really are the current owners that drive markets. I guess you're right then.

Gotta get to work on driving up prices on stuff I have lying around the house. Pretty sure used running shoes are worth at least $50k.
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Old 08-25-2014, 03:49 PM
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Such valuable market insight, presented with great charm.

WTB - 964 or 993 Coupe

Which did you end up with?
Old 08-25-2014, 04:56 PM
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