Say it ain't so! Eric, contemplating a flip???

SilberUrS6 · 08-01-2013, 05:20 PM

OK, so yes I am. Let me start there. I know of a car in storage (mostly), that the owner is getting weary of. He saw me driving one day, followed me, then struck up a conversation. Lo and behold, he has an 84 3.2 in his garage that travels about 100 miles per year. But he says there's a problem. It has oil consumption issues. OK, sez me, that happens with these cars - valve guides. Pull the heads and replace the guides. He tells me that his wife is not really on-board with the expense of doing so for a car that gets so little use. I tell him I want to see the car, and drive it, and I'll tell him what I think.

I am going to be vague on purpose, because I don't know how all of this is going to pan out. I am helping this guy because he's a Porsche guy, but he seems a little reluctant on just about every suggestion I make. The ONLY suggestion he seems to like is the one he made:

"Hey, you could buy it from me."

But I don't need another car.

Seriously. As in "I want a divorce" seriously. OK, maybe not quite there, but let's not even flirt with it, OK?

I want to help him, but I really am not going to even think about buying the car unless it is completely revenue-neutral for me. So, let's make an assumption (which I will verify or not over the coming few weeks) - that is, that the car is indeed consuming a great deal of oil (no leaks, the underside is bone-dry) and will need the head work, plus over-the-engine fuel lines, plus any other "while I'm in here" kinds of things.

Stats:

140k+ miles.
915 shifts very well, documented rebuild ~40k miles ago.
6 previous owners, spotty record-keeping.
Runs and drive well, IMO.
Fuchs 7x16s and 9x16s, new tires in the last two years. Wheels look really good.
Turbo tie rods and valve covers.
Interior looks pretty darn good. Very small mount of wear on driver's bolster (have to look for it) and headliner in pretty good shape - not perfect, but good. Visors are in great shape, LOL. Interior is an easy 8.5/10 Maybe better. Carpet looks pretty good too.
Paint is solid - but has a few chips. Not too bad. The color is not: red, black, white, silver.

I would call it a 4-footer.
AC works well. Better than I expected, actually.
I didn't see any smoke on start up, and the car feels strong. Doesn't pull or drift. Brakes good, but will need pads/rotors sometime in the next couple of years, depending on use.

There are no pics, and until I have a solid plan, I'm going to stick with a physical description.

So, the question is simple, really. Should I buy the car, fix it, and sell it? The reason I ask is because I have a purchase price number in my mind. I want to know YOUR price there.

I also have a selling price number in my mind. The one where I have a car with a documented top end rebuild, a documented trans rebuild, in a good color, that has 140k+ miles on it, looks pretty good, and doesn't seem to need much else. If the two numbers are too close together, then it doesn't make sense for me to do this. If the numbers are far enough apart, I can get the car, get the work done at a good shop, and sell the car to a Pelikaner for a good price, all the while covering my financial butt. That would be factoring in the purchase price of the car, parts, labor, fees and my hourly time at something a bit less than what I get paid in my regular job.

Where you guys come in is telling me what you would pay for the car as it sits, assuming it is exactly as I have said, in need of valve guides, and what you would pay if the car is exactly as I stated, EXCEPT with a fresh top-end from a reputable shop (let's say John Walker-quality).

I have numbers in mind already, but I don't want to bias the experts....

mreid · 08-01-2013, 05:26 PM

$10k + $3k = $16k

dporsche74 · 08-01-2013, 05:33 PM

haha cant resist eh....... 6+5=11 sell for 20

SilberUrS6 · 08-01-2013, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mreid

$10k + $3k = $16k

I'm not sure I can get a documented rebuild for that kind of money. I think no less than $6k these days.

It has to be documented, and from an established shop. Otherwise, it'll be a net negative, IMO.

Unless you can explain how I could get a documented $3k rebuild without putting in a metric boatload of my own time

SilberUrS6 · 08-01-2013, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dporsche74

haha cant resist eh....... 6+5=11 sell for 20

Wow, $6k is all you'd spend on the car in it's current state? Isn't it worth more than that in parts alone?

What am I missing here? (BTW, NFW I get the car as it sits for $6k. He already has a figure in mind as well...)

dporsche74 · 08-01-2013, 05:57 PM

yup... 6K for a 3.2 short hood with broken studs or guides . (a good price for the seller too)
from one of those shops you are talking about . they will offer 3-4K for the whole car maybe..
Yes worth 10K in parts but who's taking that apart for you .. sell every piece.. box em up.. ship em out lots of work there. messy to boot

thepenguin99 · 06:07 PM

It sounds like you really don't want to buy a car for resale. Have you thought about brokering the car for him? Make a little money but you are essentially just doing him the favor of selling it for him.

I think financially the car would be better to sell as is. It sounds like it runs and drives fine, just uses oil. A car like that isn't going to bring MORE than 6k over its current value if you redo the top end. A DIYer looking for a project would probably happily buy the car for repaired value minus 4-5k and do the work themselves when it gets bad enough that it annoys them.

As far as value as is. I think I would price it 14k. Be prepared to take 13...12 if you want it to sell fast.

SilberUrS6 · 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepenguin99

It sounds like you really don't want to buy a car for resale. Have you thought about brokering the car for him? Make a little money but you are essentially just doing him the favor of selling it for him.

I think financially the car would be better to sell as is. It sounds like it runs and drives fine, just uses oil. A car like that isn't going to bring MORE than 6k over its current value if you redo the top end. A DIYer looking for a project would probably happily buy the car for repaired value minus 4-5k and do the work themselves when it gets bad enough that it annoys them.

As far as value as is. I think I would price it 14k. Be prepared to take 13...12 if you want it to sell fast.

So, $14k as it sits, $20k after the repair? (more or less, with wiggle room?)

Edit: I would like to make a nice car available to the wider community, rather than have it sit in a garage forever. But if it doesn't make financial sense, then no, I would rather not buy the car, fix it, then resell it. I WILL NOT buy it then flip it as is. Only as a repaired car (assuming it needs the repair to begin with) - that's the only way I get involved in this deal.

SilberUrS6 · 08-01-2013, 06:30 PM

Oh, and BTW - stop with the PMs already. I don't have the car. I don't even know if there's a problem with it. If there is a problem, I don't know if I am buying it. If there is a problem and I'm not buying it, I might or might not help the guy sell it here.

But I sure as heck am not going to pass along his info to you! I appreciate the interest, seriously, but I don't own this car, and from the response so far, I don't think I want to own this car.

thepenguin99 · 06:37 PM

I actually think fixed more like 18k. Kinda why I think it will bring 12-14k as is.

EDIT: I would have been PMing you too if I didn't have a 91 going through PPI Monday.

Matt Monson · 08-01-2013, 07:34 PM

What's full market on the car repaired? $22-25k.
I guess the question you have to ask yourself is what do you consider the Pelican brotherhood discount selling price where you are walking the talk of not being a profit mongering flipper. I'd personally say $16-18k, which means you need to get into it for $10k or less.

It will need more then just the top end. Figure an extra $2-3k of unseen unplanned repair expenses. The little stuff adds up quickly. I know from personal experience. I had close to $15 into my $9k '85 by the time I parted with it. Nice rubber alone is $700-800.

SilberUrS6 · 08-01-2013, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

What's full market on the car repaired? $22-25k.
I guess the question you have to ask yourself is what do you consider the Pelican brotherhood discount selling price where you are walking the talk of not being a profit mongering flipper. I'd personally say $16-18k, which means you need to get into it for $10k or less.

It will need more then just the top end. Figure an extra $2-3k of unseen unplanned repair expenses. The little stuff adds up quickly. I know from personal experience. I had close to $15 into my $9k '85 by the time I parted with it. Nice rubber alone is $700-800.

Yeah, I am giving myself some wiggle room. I see what you did there with the flipper stuff, and I did LOL a little.

My personal philosophy on this will be full disclosure. As in, I bought this car with bad valve guides and had them fixed. The car was going to sit in a garage forever, but I felt it was better off being driven by someone who wants to drive it, so here's my price, which covers my costs. My costs include car, parts, labor, fees, and my time at a reasonable per-hour rate.

If I were to go all the way to the end with this, it would be a firm FS - that is, if I felt that I had $22.5k into it, I would ask - $22.5k, firm. I'm not in the car flipping or selling business, and my personal philosophy trumps all other considerations.

Which is why I ask up front what the learned opinion of Pelican Parts is. If I can't break even, I'm not going to spend the time on it. Out of my love for the brand and my desire to help people, I might help the gentleman sell it as it, but I sure as heck won't buy it myself.

geshaghi · geshaghi's Garage

Eric, a flipper! I can hardly believe it.

Matt Monson · 08-01-2013, 08:29 PM

Eric, my comment was not intended as a dig. You have said in the past that you would not turn a profit on a deal like this. I take you at your word. I would sell this hypothetical car at a $1000-2000 profit because I expect to be compensated for my time and energy and not just my tangible costs.

In fact, I personally would take this car, and ask a $1000 finder's fee on it and pass it on to someone else. The effort, and earning of that fee comes from vetting the buyers and only striking a deal with someone you were sure was going to give it a good home.

Cajundaddy · Cajundaddy's Garage

$10K as is and roll the dice. It *could* be worth $20ish after some serious effort and quality repair work. Every used car has an element of risk.

SilberUrS6 · 08-01-2013, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geshaghi

Eric, a flipper! I can hardly believe it.

Seriously. The end is near, LOL.

SilberUrS6 · 08-01-2013, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Eric, my comment was not intended as a dig. You have said in the past that you would not turn a profit on a deal like this. I take you at your word. I would sell this hypothetical car at a $1000-2000 profit because I expect to be compensated for my time and energy and not just my tangible costs.

In fact, I personally would take this car, and ask a $1000 finder's fee on it and pass it on to someone else. The effort, and earning of that fee comes from vetting the buyers and only striking a deal with someone you were sure was going to give it a good home.

I don't consider the time spent as a "gift". I would also charge for that time spent. The good thing is that the car is reasonably local. The bad thing is that the shops qualified to do the work are not. So that would take time and effort on my part, and I would not give those away for free.

BUT - I also would not be looking to get a jackpot on this. It would be exactly like going to work - I expect to be paid when I generate revenue for my company. In this case, if I bought the car, the time I spent chasing down the details would be charged to the final asking price.

If the time/effort spent is not worth the money, I'm not even going to contemplate this. I will do some of it on my own time - doing a sort of mini-detail to get it ready for photography - taking pics, posting pics - all that is on me, if and when. But all the rest will be on the final buyer.

My goal in this is to take an unused car that needs repair, do the repair, then and present it to the wider world as a good car ready for someone to enjoy. More of a VAR than a flipper, LOL.

CountD · 08-01-2013, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dporsche74

yup... 6K for a 3.2 short hood with broken studs or guides . (a good price for the seller too)
from one of those shops you are talking about . they will offer 3-4K for the whole car maybe..
Yes worth 10K in parts but who's taking that apart for you .. sell every piece.. box em up.. ship em out lots of work there. messy to boot

I think if I hear one more person say that 'such and such' car is worth only $6k on this forum I'm going to personally lose my mind and run across the States like Forest Gump did and search for this $6k car. No way anyone ever buys, sells, or trades almost any year 911 for $6k anymore (or that last more than one hour for sale) these days especially not a 1984. Please if anyone has a line on any 3.2 for $6k I will take it with these issues, but I don't know if I could deal with those issues as I've now lost my mind and have issues...

SilberUrS6 · 08-01-2013, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CountD

I think if I hear one more person say that 'such and such' car is worth only $6k on this forum I'm going to personally lose my mind and run across the States like Forest Gump did and search for this $6k car. No way anyone ever buys, sells, or trades almost any year 911 for $6k anymore (or that last more than one hour for sale) these days especially not a 1984. Please if anyone has a line on any 3.2 for $6k I will take it with these issues, but I don't know if I could deal with those issues as I've now lost my mind and have issues...

No, it's not a serious number, and I'm not treating it like one. Maybe he could get some sucker to take that kind of small money, but it would have to be someone with zero knowledge of the market. Exactly the kind of tactics I find unethical.

A car that only has valve guide issues is worth double that. Maybe even a little more, for the right car.

Milesaway · Milesaway's Garage

Why bother with the time and expense to fix it? Surely its better to just buy it as you are the only one who can and make it available to the wider community. You deserve to make a profit regardless but mainly the car will end up getting repaired and in the hands of a new owner who will drive it.