Has the market for longnose racecars gone flat?

[Matt Monson]

FS - 1969 Porsche Race Car - Jack Lewis Enterprise Build! FS - 1969 Porsche Race Car - Jack Lewis Enterprise Build! 1970 911T -- Spec 911 racecar -- Blut Orange $45-50k for a sorted vintage racer used to be pretty standard, with them costing 80-100K to build. Seems like a lot of them are sitting right now. Thoughts?

[Fubawu]

Well everything seems to be sitting a little longer now. The 70 car is a little odd in terms of vintage racing being a spec build. The 70 is close to ready but the 3.0 is a bit of a bastard for proper classes. The 69 is a nice car but the 912 vin hurts

[1979-930]

This car is back on the market after a 3 month removal. I think it was listed for $43k last time. It's not as nice as the two you have posted.

Porsche 911 Race Car

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Fubawu

Well everything seems to be sitting a little longer now. The 70 car is a little odd in terms of vintage racing being a spec build. The 70 is close to ready but the 3.0 is a bit of a bastard for proper classes. The 69 is a nice car but the 912 vin hurts

Vintage is a relative term. I include pretty much anything air cooled into the vintage category these days though certain governing bodies wouldn't allow some of them. For example, vintage 24 hours of Daytona has the 3.0 class which is mostly RSRs and RSR reps, but a couple of these cars would fit that class. Spec911 is definitely a vintage class in my eyes.

[Fubawu]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Vintage is a relative term. I include pretty much anything air cooled into the vintage category these days though certain governing bodies wouldn't allow some of them. For example, vintage 24 hours of Daytona has the 3.0 class which is mostly RSRs and RSR reps, but a couple of these cars would fit that class. Spec911 is definitely a vintage class in my eyes.

I agree, I race in a very liberal race group. For these race cars to bring bigger
price points they need the proper vintage equipment. Early cases, 10k tachs,etc.
A lot of the cars for sale are faster in there current configuration but the big wings
and wide fenders hurt resale.

[mobius911]

Regardless of what you call Spec 911, the formula appears to be working. I was at a recent NASA event that included Spec 911. They had more than 20 cars! And there's no question that a large field of closely matched cars is what makes racing fun.

Seems they've done a good job of making the class open to a wide range of models/years. Perfect for that non-matching numbers beater early T or midyear. And resale prices are reasonable? Win-win.

[dsfnctn]

Originally Posted by mobius911

Regardless of what you call Spec 911, the formula appears to be working. I was at a recent NASA event that included Spec 911. They had more than 20 cars! And there's no question that a large field of closely matched cars is what makes racing fun.

Seems they've done a good job of making the class open to a wide range of models/years. Perfect for that non-matching numbers beater early T or midyear. And resale prices are reasonable? Win-win.

It appears to me the spec 911 formula only works for the builders or the owners that are in denial. The cost to have a front row car is very expensive. Where are the doner cars comming from? A lot of rules designed by builders to push their products. Heavy damage from wrecks. very local turn out. 20 car turn out if you race in Norcal . Spec Boxter you will find 20 cars at more than one area across the country.

The blunt orange spec 911 for sale shows a very flat market for long hood race cars with no history. It has been for sale and has not been swept up. I see value in these cars restoring back to street car hot rods. All the plastic long hood race cars seem to be built in an arms race fashion with no respect to one design racing. hard to add any value to that formula.

Now if the long hood has been raced in its day and has history the market is going through the roof. http://www.porsport.com/1967_911_s_toad_hall_racer

[Dan J]

I've found the whole of the Porsche race car market is dead
especially the non factory built cars
This car from Loren is not even pennies on the dollar:
1969 911 PORSCHE RACE CAR 993 GT2 Bodywork

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Dan J

I've found the whole of the Porsche race car market is dead
especially the non factory built cars
This car from Loren is not even pennies on the dollar:
1969 911 PORSCHE RACE CAR 993 GT2 Bodywork

Jesus. Hadn't seen that one. At that price I could buy it and put the engine and gearbox in my Cup for less than its costing me to buy and build that stuff from scratch. And it's already got my gears and lsd.

[matt930s]

TheSamba.com :: VW Classifieds - 1973 911 race car

[blau911]

I tend to look at an early 911 or 912's value based more upon how much it will cost to bring it back to original, rather than how much it cost to make it a race car. The guys selling their race cars in these links are pricing their cars based upon how much they put into it rather than what it's worth, and that is the disconnect. Perhaps they are hoping/expecting that someone looking to build a race car will buy his car as a way to save himself time and money by buying one already done. Most of the time, the people who do this end up having to drop extra money into the car despite all the work already done...

[Matt Monson]

Not a race car but figured this car would be interesting to talk about. Is it really worth Cayman gt4 money? Nothing against the car or seller, just skeptical that the market is there.
WTT: 70RSR for GT4 (possibly GT3)

[dsfnctn]

Not very well documented to be a sixty thousand dollar car. Crappy pics and basic mods not doing it for me. From a GT4 or GT3 I would go for something like this.

78 911, vintage race car

Learn how to drive.

[Magurk]

I'm currently in the market for a couple of cars and all air cooleds with opportunistic pricing seem to be sitting on market longer. I truly think that standard advertised cars that aren't priced reasonably are not moving. Although I did register and bid at Auctions America Ft L. Auctions earlier this month and the hype drove the air cooleds that sold a touch north of what I feel they were worth. Still nothing like 2-3 years ago. Stuff not moving but a lot of sellers also not willing to negotiate much. RSR clones for 100-150k+.... no thanks

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by dsfnctn

Not very well documented to be a sixty thousand dollar car. Crappy pics and basic mods not doing it for me. From a GT4 or GT3 I would go for something like this.

78 911, vintage race car

Learn how to drive.

A GT4 is a $90k car!

I'm familiar with the car you linked. That car is worth every cent of $75k or so. You couldn't replicate it for that.

[dsfnctn]

Wonder what this will sell for?

https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-marketplace/985700-porsche-rsr-tribute-race-car.html

Cool car.

[dsfnctn]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Not a race car but figured this car would be interesting to talk about. Is it really worth Cayman gt4 money? Nothing against the car or seller, just skeptical that the market is there.
WTT: 70RSR for GT4 (possibly GT3)

Its in the details. I would not be happy with this car on the track. Cars and coffee car

[Cag4]

Hey There -- y'all noticed my WTT ad, I see... I think its an interesting discussion. And honestly, I'm torn myself. This is a *great* car, and I have no need, or hurry, to get out of it, but I seem to get itchy feet every 3-5 years.

A bit more about the car: It's not a mid-eighties backdate (done to death), and it doesn't have a 3.2 or 3.6 (over-kill and not period correct), and it's not a race car with plates (which are usually really unpleasant to drive on the street). And its not a cheaper Singer wanna-be.

It is quite accurate and mostly period correct (with the exception of the EFI to make it more liveable/tuneable/reliable). It is a class-winning capable autocross car (although I've only managed second in both CC-09 and CC-12, but that's me, not the car). It is a fun big track car and can be competitive, although it would need bigger aero, coil-overs and further lightening to compete with the purpose-built race cars in class (but that would spoil its multi-use nature). It is a fun touring car that's reliable and comfortable enough to enjoy on a targa or long distance fun run (unless its crazy hot, but it does still have heat and defrost, so cold is cool). It is a concours winning car, in the right (SP2, Current Competition) class... and yes, it is a welcome sight at any cars and coffee where it gets pretty much nothing but love.

So, if you want a car that very accurately delivers the driving dynamics of a '73-era sports purpose car -- along with all the sights, smells and thrills thereof, it offers about the widest range of classic Porsche fun available in a single package. If you want any one of those things (dedicated track, concours queen, daily driver), then no, its probably not the right one.

Which gets back to the trade: From the minute the GT4 came out I thought it was the only modern Porsche that would get me out of my 70RSR... precisely because I think it offers about the same level of "do it all" well enough to really have fun, without being too compromised in any one area. Now that prices have kind of stabilized for early cars like 70RSR, and prices have come back to earth for GT4s, I feel like there's a window of compatibility. Good older cars (not back-dates) seem to be holding in the ~$90-130K range and GT4s seem to be plentiful in the $100-115K range, likewise there are some GT3s that fall into a similar range, which I might also consider. The risk for me... and it is a real concern... is that 70RSR probably won't go down in value much anytime soon (barring global economic meltdown, part II), while it is *highly* likely that, when the GT4 RS comes out, and/or they announce another run of 2018 GT4s (which will be better, as newer Porsches always are), the price of today's GT4s will fall, perhaps another 15-30%, and they will, at least for a time, be "just another used Porsche". I'd be on the wrong end of the depreciation curve on that trade, for sure... potentially watching the value of my old car climb, while the new one falls.

So, genuinely interested in your thoughts. Am I crazy to contemplate it? Would a GT car owner who really wants a long-hood experience be nuts to trade? Am I more-or-less right on my relative value scale?

One more potentially interesting data point: I've already been contacted by 2 interested parties and we're exchanging info...

[dsfnctn]

delete

[RichardNew]

The price range for vintage 911 race cars is huge. And, it's all about provenance.

At the high end we have cars with a LeMans history. At the low end we have the SVRA 911 with no race history.

That means it's almost impossible to compare prices.

Richard Newton
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