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gearhead
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Before doesn't matter. Now matters. His story says something about someone who got fired working on the car and a punch list. There's a lot of stuff going on there over the 5 months since those pictures were taken. Maybe the fired apprentice did F it up that bad. But has it been fixed? This is the unknown. Does it still look like that? Was that condition being present to the client as ready for paint? These are the unknowns. We don't know today's condition.
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Old 10-20-2017, 02:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
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+1 to hire a lawyer.

However, not sure why there should be any hesitation to use the name of the body shop in the thread. Much like YELP reviews, you, as a customer, are completely within your rights to share your experience with a particular body shop, so long as you are not misrepresenting your experience.

As far as I understand, you are under no obligation to comply with a gag-order or keep the identify of the particular shop out of your posts. In fact, I would wager, public outcry IS your leverage.

If he is unfairly holding your car hostage, you may consider holding his reputation hostage--again, assuming you stick to your experience with some accuracy.
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Old 10-20-2017, 03:05 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobboloo View Post
Mine is #249 Olive on Blk interior.
Love that color combo, nice! Good luck with the rest of the restoration. Hope you post some pics when it's done.
Old 10-20-2017, 03:09 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobboloo View Post
I talked to John about this. I have a 71'E that John is working on.

All I can say is that most people wouldn't have even tried to save the poor car that this guy brought in but it was supposed to be a rare race car with a notable history and therefore worth saving. Unfortunately for the owner it turned out not to be that rare race car and now he's upside down.

I know people have wanted John to respond but he's got cars to build and he is literally hands on with these cars.

As for my car, it's coming along and I am very happy with the work. John always seems willing to stop and talk to customers about the cars and anyone is invited to go look for themselves at the car in question and judge for themselves.
I am calling BS and I know the car first hand and I know how this has gone along. You can not write this type of praise after seeing the job on the 67. The car IS a historic Racer and even if it was not there is no excuse for the buckets of bondo used on the car and poor craftsmanship throughout. That aside the shop acknowledged this poor work and redid it again. Better buy a paint meter and measure the mud slung on your car because you may be blinded a bit here. If you are that friendly with John give him the good advice of letting Chad pick up his car. He has already had $55,000 of fun there. Word of this is spreading fast.

Last edited by Don A.; 10-20-2017 at 04:14 PM..
Old 10-20-2017, 03:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
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trial by internet. and with just a morsel of information to go on, everyone is going to chime in a and take sides. welcome to the now.

there is a lot more to this story that isn't being told here.

important to note the OP is an outlier statistically in that john has a well earned reputation built over many years. i think his decision to acknowledge the thread and walk away is admirable, and were i in his position i would likely do the same. if i were in the market for a high dollar resto, this wouldn't prevent me from talking to john and feeling out him and his shop myself.

it is so very easy to get high and mighty behind a screen and keyboard...
Old 10-20-2017, 03:51 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dwelle View Post
trial by internet. and with just a morsel of information to go on, everyone is going to chime in a and take sides. welcome to the now.

there is a lot more to this story that isn't being told here.

important to note the OP is an outlier statistically in that john has a well earned reputation built over many years. i think his decision to acknowledge the thread and walk away is admirable, and were i in his position i would likely do the same. if i were in the market for a high dollar resto, this wouldn't prevent me from talking to john and feeling out him and his shop myself.

it is so very easy to get high and mighty behind a screen and keyboard...
Plenty of non "outliers" have seen or should I say vomited over the work. Man that's a good one. Unreal.
Old 10-20-2017, 03:55 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #26 (permalink)
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Not what I have found to be the truth

I began to see these posts and I was a little shocked and confused to say the least. I have been working on and restoring Porsches for the past 15 years. Iím also an architect who specializes in car museums. Iíve been in the car industry almost all my life. I have personally known John for over 10 years. When I saw some of these statements made about John I wasnít sure this was the same John that I knew. So I gave him a call to get his side of the story.
From what I can see the complaint seems to be coming from a position of anger. Clearly there are two sides to every story. My original bemusement of these postings was that my knowledge of John and how he works is entirely different than what I was reading.
Over the years I have worked with quite a few body shops and Porsche enthusiast. What I have found is that there are a lot of very talented people out there that know a lot about these cars. What I know about John is that he is incredibly honest and talent, which is why I was very confused by this persons comments. The last car I had John work on was a concourse winner (Iím also very grateful to TLG) and in short his body work and his painting was absolutely first class and incredible. He has also painted (and body work) my recent Porsche (1968 911S soft window Sportomatic), and honestly Iím astounded by how he was able to bring this rust bucket back to concourse level. I would never question Johnís abilities.
I saw some of the photos posted and they look to be in progress photos. For those of us who have seen how some of these artists like John stitch these 50 plus year old rust buckets back to life you will recognize itís not that easy. But you can count on the fact that with John and his crew over there, the end result is always spectacular.
I would try and take this gentlemanís comments with a grain of salt. The John (and everyone else over there) that I know, is an incredibly honest and extremely talented person.
As for the money side of things, Iím not sure what happened there, or even if its accurate what this gentleman is saying, but I do know that John has never over charged me. I know what it takes to make these cars look beautiful. Like I said, Iím completely confused by this guyís vitriolic rampage.
Bottom line, yea I would try and slow it down. Restoring a Porsche is not like painting a house. My advice when restoring these cars, be sure you make it clear what you want done, and ask for an estimate up front listing all the work that is needed. Make sure you get a schedule worked out, and visit the shop on a regular bases. Also ask lots of questions. For example, ask them how are they going to fix the ľ panel etc. Also know that when you paint a car there are many different types of paint all of which will give you a different look. Know everything about your car. If you are unsure about something, ask. Ask the body shop or ask Pelican. There are so many extremely knowledgeable people out there especially when it comes to Porsche. My biggest complaint about people restoring cars today is that they know very little about the car and they dump it at a talented shop and expect it to be concourse level for next to nothing.

Old 10-20-2017, 04:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #27 (permalink)
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my comment was general and not directed at anyone in particular.

in my time involved with these cars, this is first negative i've ever heard. i have, however, heard and seen many instances where his work is appreciated by those who have worked with him. it is a fact he has restored many beautiful cars. he has built a nice reputation for himself. it is also a fact that this first time I have heard any sort of complaint about his work.

as such, i'd consider it an outlier.

totally real...
Old 10-20-2017, 04:30 PM
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Its concours. Unless he restored the town square.
I hope the guy restores better than you spell.

Also is that a crease on the hood of that mustard thing or was it painted in two colors?
Because the bonnet to fender line looks awful in that picture right where it changes. Hope it's just a compression artifact in the image.
Old 10-20-2017, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by AlanG View Post
I began to see these posts and I was a little shocked and confused to say the least. I have been working on and restoring Porsches for the past 15 years. Iím also an architect who specializes in car museums. Iíve been in the car industry almost all my life. I have personally known John for over 10 years. When I saw some of these statements made about John I wasnít sure this was the same John that I knew. So I gave him a call to get his side of the story.
From what I can see the complaint seems to be coming from a position of anger. Clearly there are two sides to every story. My original bemusement of these postings was that my knowledge of John and how he works is entirely different than what I was reading.
Over the years I have worked with quite a few body shops and Porsche enthusiast. What I have found is that there are a lot of very talented people out there that know a lot about these cars. What I know about John is that he is incredibly honest and talent, which is why I was very confused by this persons comments. The last car I had John work on was a concourse winner (Iím also very grateful to TLG) and in short his body work and his painting was absolutely first class and incredible. He has also painted (and body work) my recent Porsche (1968 911S soft window Sportomatic), and honestly Iím astounded by how he was able to bring this rust bucket back to concourse level. I would never question Johnís abilities.
I saw some of the photos posted and they look to be in progress photos. For those of us who have seen how some of these artists like John stitch these 50 plus year old rust buckets back to life you will recognize itís not that easy. But you can count on the fact that with John and his crew over there, the end result is always spectacular.
I would try and take this gentlemanís comments with a grain of salt. The John (and everyone else over there) that I know, is an incredibly honest and extremely talented person.
As for the money side of things, Iím not sure what happened there, or even if its accurate what this gentleman is saying, but I do know that John has never over charged me. I know what it takes to make these cars look beautiful. Like I said, Iím completely confused by this guyís vitriolic rampage.
Bottom line, yea I would try and slow it down. Restoring a Porsche is not like painting a house. My advice when restoring these cars, be sure you make it clear what you want done, and ask for an estimate up front listing all the work that is needed. Make sure you get a schedule worked out, and visit the shop on a regular bases. Also ask lots of questions. For example, ask them how are they going to fix the ľ panel etc. Also know that when you paint a car there are many different types of paint all of which will give you a different look. Know everything about your car. If you are unsure about something, ask. Ask the body shop or ask Pelican. There are so many extremely knowledgeable people out there especially when it comes to Porsche. My biggest complaint about people restoring cars today is that they know very little about the car and they dump it at a talented shop and expect it to be concourse level for next to nothing.

if you are such a supporter of John post some paint readings of your Targa and let's see if your car is a Bondo sculpture too. If the shop is that good it will be reflected in the readings. Chad got screwed. Too many independent people including myself inspected the car before it was returned for correction. If the work was so good why did they fire their employee who did it and then agree to correct it?? Ask him those questions. Too many eyes have seen the car. If your friend is a good business man he should resolve this.

Last edited by Don A.; 10-20-2017 at 08:33 PM..
Old 10-20-2017, 07:48 PM
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Is that really how porsche's fender to hood gaps look(allanG)? Either way during a full restoration I would have addressed that and fixed that. Honestly coming from my perspective as a fellow restorer John is at best a sculptor that fools the masses with a fantastic block sanding and stellar paint job on top of a gigantic amount of plastic filler. I don't doubt that John's work is leaps and bounds above other paint jobs that are typically achieved by the average "custom" painter. In all of my experience most customers don't even know how to appreciate a proper restoration and simply go after the name brand such as the one John Esposito had. I just spoke with a very reputable restorer that had the opportunity to work on a vehicle after John was finished and the car had all kinds of serious structural problems that John was payed to fix. Seems to be less of the end of a great era and more of cat is out of the bag. If he ever did amazing work it was with a different crew and in a different time period

Last edited by nathanbs; 10-20-2017 at 08:00 PM..
Old 10-20-2017, 07:49 PM
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Looks to me like Alan's hood is just unlatched...
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Old 10-20-2017, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Looks to me like Alan's hood is just unlatched...
Probably but what about the incorrect headlights and bumper deco?
Old 10-20-2017, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Looks to me like Alan's hood is just unlatched...
It is but study the gap and it's inconsistencies.
Old 10-20-2017, 08:35 PM
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Are those wheelbarrow wheels and tires on that orange creamsicle car?!?!
Old 10-21-2017, 12:14 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Don A. View Post
Probably but what about the incorrect headlights and bumper deco?
What about them? Those are things determined by a car owner, and have nothing to do with metal and paintwork.

You're posting like someone who has skin in this. Maybe the op should have spent some real money with you and bought the finished one instead of a project? Might have been cheaper in the end.
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Old 10-21-2017, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
What about them? Those are things determined by a car owner, and have nothing to do with metal and paintwork.

You're posting like someone who has skin in this. Maybe the op should have spent some real money with you and bought the finished one instead of a project? Might have been cheaper in the end.
I do have skin in the game. I am watching a friend get screwed over by clearly poor work while others stand up and defend John Esposito while being blind. The photos alone do not lie. As far as an owner having a shop put the wrong parts on his car fine, just don't stand up and say what a great restoration is being done. I bet he does not even know they are incorrect.

Last edited by Don A.; 10-21-2017 at 06:32 AM..
Old 10-21-2017, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Macroni View Post
In this situation beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and to Alan there is great beauty in his Targa.
Good for him. Everyone should have a toy they love. I quite like mustard cars myself.

But...

He's holding this up as an example of concourse (sic) work. The picture -appears- to show issues with paint and body. In a thread started by a guy who claims to have issues with work done by same concours level restorer.

Other than the obvious need to find entertainment on a Saturday morning while my youngest is doing sports I have no dog here, but I would suggest that if one wanted to give unsolicited references, one should pick an example that presents better, photo artifact or no.

Ymmv.
Old 10-21-2017, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Don A. View Post
I do have skin in the game. I am watching a friend get screwed over by clearly poor work while others stand up and defend John Esposito while being blind. The photos alone do not lie. As far as an owner having a shop put the wrong parts on his car fine, just don't stand up and say what a great restoration is being done. I bet he does not even know they are incorrect.
I'm not defending John. Consider me an investigative reporter who believes in innocent until proven guilty and that trial by internet is usually conducted with torches, pitch forks and ropes for lynching.

How much skin do you have in the game? Above you assert that it's a historic racecar. There seems to be some dispute around the authenticity of the vehicle and/or the vin.

Hypothetically, if a shop, such as yours, were to sell such a car, with provenance, and it later is shown the car isn't really that car or has that history there would be both reputation and financial jeopardy. Even if the shop just "certified" the car as an expert examining it, that wouldn't look good for the expert.

Restamping tubs is questionable business. It was the first red flag I saw in the OP's story. If it's being restamped with it's correct number, as verified by something like a cardex confirming the "secret number" on the dash, that's fine. But what if the car is being passed off as a different vin?

I am reminded of something similar with an engine case:
911/83 7R RS/Euro Carrera Engine Case


In that thread you ask who would restamp an engine case and put it into a real RS? Isn't the answer obvious? Someone would restamp an engine case and put it into a real RS because they are trying to pass off a car that has lost it's engine as an original numbers matching car. Duh.

And we still don't know how the 67 looks today. There's no question that someone at John's shop screwed up that car. The question is did they fix it?
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Old 10-21-2017, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
I'm not defending John. Consider me an investigative reporter who believes in innocent until proven guilty and that trial by internet is usually conducted with torches, pitch forks and ropes for lynching.

How much skin do you have in the game? Above you assert that it's a historic racecar. There seems to be some dispute around the authenticity of the vehicle and/or the vin.

Hypothetically, if a shop, such as yours, were to sell such a car, with provenance, and it later is shown the car isn't really that car or has that history there would be both reputation and financial jeopardy. Even if the shop just "certified" the car as an expert examining it, that wouldn't look good for the expert.

Restamping tubs is questionable business. It was the first red flag I saw in the OP's story. If it's being restamped with it's correct number, as verified by something like a cardex confirming the "secret number" on the dash, that's fine. But what if the car is being passed off as a different vin?

I am reminded of something similar with an engine case:
911/83 7R RS/Euro Carrera Engine Case


In that thread you ask who would restamp an engine case and put it into a real RS? Isn't the answer obvious? Someone would restamp an engine case and put it into a real RS because they are trying to pass off a car that has lost it's engine as an original numbers matching car. Duh.

And we still don't know how the 67 looks today. There's no question that someone at John's shop screwed up that car. The question is did they fix it?

I think you may need to correct that. The question was who would stamp the case as a 75 and put it a 73 RS? That is why it was removed and also why it was priced as such. A 73RS case would be a lot more money. That case if it was stamped was done as a 75 replacement and probably a long time ago.

I sold the car with a clear history and vin with a clear title and log books. The secret number on the dash IS the chassis number in 67. No mystery. My side of the street is clean. No need to try and smear me. The car is legitimate.

Posting this does not change the work done on the 67. If you really want to help this speak with your friend John and have him release the car. You can also ring me any time. I am happy to discuss this. Thanks.

Last edited by Don A.; 10-21-2017 at 07:32 AM..
Old 10-21-2017, 07:20 AM
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