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@ Ian C2 - Did you get the RR back?
Old 10-21-2017, 05:51 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #61 (permalink)
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I don't know the laws in all the States, but in Montreal you don't need to pay a penny and take you car (as long as the title of the car is in your name). If he refuses, you can call the police and they'll make him hand over the car.
He then has the right to take you to court for not paying. The court will decide on the amount.....

Good luck!
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Old 10-21-2017, 06:24 PM
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What a fÜckin' circle jerk.
Old 10-21-2017, 08:25 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #63 (permalink)
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My advice at this point in the game is to find an intermediary who can talk to both sides. At this point there is a lot of ego going on, but I would bet that the shop owner would probably like to exit this quietly and quickly. Trust me on this, I've seen these situations on a number of occasions, and they can end ok, not great but ok, as long as people get to save face.

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Old 10-21-2017, 09:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #64 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by messiha View Post
I don't know the laws in all the States, but in Montreal you don't need to pay a penny and take you car (as long as the title of the car is in your name). If he refuses, you can call the police and they'll make him hand over the car.
He then has the right to take you to court for not paying. The court will decide on the amount.....

Good luck!
As a fellow Canadian, I'm just flabbergasted they can just keep his property like that. The cops would 100% side with the legal owner here. Plus the fact they were basically taken hostage/kidnapped for 4 hours.

Shady.
Old 10-21-2017, 10:17 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #65 (permalink)
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This is what happens when forums create forum super heros. You have guys and gals who have no clue of what a proper repair is swearing how great someone is. This then keeps snowballing and you have someone who becomes unquestionable or you have a 100 people jump down your throat.

Before anybody comments they should know what they are talking about. Making someone out to be something they not is wrong. This always happens until they get a customer who actually knows what they are paying for then we get these WTF posts.

There are a lot of shops that I wouldn't bring a go-cart to that are praised on here daily.

back to the arguments
Old 10-22-2017, 12:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #66 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by WANNA930 View Post
This is what happens when forums create forum super heros. You have guys and gals who have no clue of what a proper repair is swearing how great someone is. This then keeps snowballing and you have someone who becomes unquestionable or you have a 100 people jump down your throat.

Before anybody comments they should know what they are talking about. Making someone out to be something they not is wrong. This always happens until they get a customer who actually knows what they are paying for then we get these WTF posts.

There are a lot of shops that I wouldn't bring a go-cart to that are praised on here daily.

back to the arguments
This^^^ thumbs up. I don't know how many times I've seen some of the very worst shops getting tons of praise on the internet and I just cringe. In this case I had no idea I just assumed he was a genius. Maybe he was years ago? Who knows. Sad
Old 10-22-2017, 12:58 AM
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@messiah and @ pichu- The LAPD wouldn't do that here; they consider it a civil matter. I thought that was the law, too. I still think that I should have been allowed to leave with my property, but was unable to after they locked the gate on me. The police simply cannot force the property owner to open the gate nor allow me to take my property. They encourage lawyers to get involved.
I'd like to get my car back and would be willing to sit down with a mediator, have a 3rd party talk to us both , or any other scenario that would get the dialogue going.
Old 10-22-2017, 08:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #68 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sixtyseven911 View Post
I'd like to get my car back and would be willing to sit down with a mediator, have a 3rd party talk to us both , or any other scenario that would get the dialogue going.
How about Techweenie ?
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Old 10-22-2017, 10:11 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #69 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sixtyseven911 View Post
@messiah and @ pichu- The LAPD wouldn't do that here; they consider it a civil matter. I thought that was the law, too. I still think that I should have been allowed to leave with my property, but was unable to after they locked the gate on me. The police simply cannot force the property owner to open the gate nor allow me to take my property. They encourage lawyers to get involved.
I'd like to get my car back and would be willing to sit down with a mediator, have a 3rd party talk to us both , or any other scenario that would get the dialogue going.
Whomever you find to act as the middleman, make sure it's someone who knows John and already has a rapport with him. Also be prepared to not get everything you want, have a best case and worst case already in your head when you walk in the room so you don't have to make those decisions on the fly. Remember, if you get lawyers involved, the only people who win are the lawyers.


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Old 10-22-2017, 11:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #70 (permalink)
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I'd be looking at this slightly differently.
Consider whether you wired him any $ across state lines?
If so contact the Feds in your home state.

They have zero sense of humor about wire fraud, and that'll really determine if you have a leg to stand on.
Old 10-22-2017, 01:10 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #71 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Unobtanium-inc View Post
Whomever you find to act as the middleman, make sure it's someone who knows John and already has a rapport with him. Also be prepared to not get everything you want, have a best case and worst case already in your head when you walk in the room so you don't have to make those decisions on the fly. Remember, if you get lawyers involved, the only people who win are the lawyers.


---Adam
Adam,

I don't know if you saw or read the first thread. In it, Chad disclosed that he had already been contacted by their lawyer. That ship has sailed. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

I have been accused of defending Espositos. That's not the case at all. What I have been doing is describing how these things play out AND challenging the OP to make his case publicly since he started down this misguided path of a trail by internet.

The problems with this approach are many. Instead of detente, starting a thread is escalation and one that is not insignificant. While this is a toy car to Chad, this is John's livelihood. Think about that for a second. How would any of you react if someone threatened your very means of surivival. Would you become more negotiable? I think the honest answer is most of you wouldn't. You would get angry, and most likely would strike back. At the very least you would use every means at your disposal to stop the attack, and at the worst you would go right back after the attacker for every cent and more they may be costing you.

I thought Chad understood that Friday when he indicated that he was going to pull the other thread, as requested by their attorney, and move forward from there. Someone appears to have given him advice offline and convinced him he needed to turn up the heat, not be intimidated by a lawyer, and go back at it. And that's where things really went off the rails.

If I'm Esposito, and the new thread goes up? The original problem probably doesn't control the situation anymore. Now anything and everything I do is to cost you every single cent in my power to get your car back AND I am going to try to get even more money out of you. And you're only talking to my lawyer. If there's a mediator, it's a mediator with my lawyer present. I won't take your calls. I won't acknowledge you at all unless I am served with a legal document. It's all in writing. It's all lawyer approved and supervised. It's a matter for the courts.

It doesn't matter if Chad is in the right. It doesn't matter if Chad has already been screwed once. This whole thing just got as difficult as humanly possible all because of the existence of this thread.

Threads like these bring out the worst in people. Look at all the people here who don't know John, have never done business with John, can't afford to do business with John, but are on the attack trying to take down a God, as one person described him. He's a man. He is human like us. He has been injured and sick and his livelihood is already suffering as a result. Now perfect strangers jump on the bandwagon and wish him out of business, call him all manner of names, and become just plain venomous people for no good reason other than to be spiteful. It's not a righteous fight. Nobody is vanquishing a dragon here. None of you outside of Don, actually know Chad.

Chad,
I have some advice for you. Multiple times since this started, you have mentioned your faith. I encourage you to pray. I encourage you to pray for compassion and empathy towards another man. Pray for your enemy. I think the solution to your problem will come in your faith and your humanity. You've been wronged. I honestly don't think he wants to screw you. I think if given a reasonable human chance he would attempt to do right by you. As Adam mentioned, you need to go in knowing you aren't going to get all of what you want. You will likely get most of it, even if the business closes it's doors. Get a lawyer. Make yourself amenable to a solution. If you listen to all this chatter about screwing the guy and go for the jugular it will end poorly for you both. I wish you a wonderful Sunday. Spend some time with your wife and son and revel in the beauty of the gift of life. You don't need all this negativity in your head making you more angry and aggressive. It's Sunday, and to be very cliche, I'm gonna ask you, WWJD?
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Old 10-22-2017, 01:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #72 (permalink)
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Reading this thread and what can I say, this kind of things are probably only possible in USA...

A guy f***s up (or did not even do anything, not sure about that) customers car, takes $hitload of money and now wont give customer his car back.
Well, unless the car has been fixed to what was promised (what was promised?) and customer would not want to pay, then justice system just works in favour of a dark side.

Like few others have menioned Canada, it is same way over here too: if someone refuses to give back car and you have title then just report it stolen and go there with a police and just take it back.

Matt mentioned about car being hobby to one and job to other. Well, I put it that way: it is passion for one and can be just another job to another. There is no justification of keeping a customers car. No prayers or faith to god would justify that or help it.

This kind of threads don't just come up, in all cases I have seen there has been SOME reason. It may be misunderstanding or poor communication, but that is already a bad behaviour from a shop. Shop is the one that needs to stand up to their reputation and they should know the risks.

Clearly some old school guys have not realized how fast bad word can move nowadays!
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Old 10-22-2017, 02:19 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #73 (permalink)
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Adam,

I don't know if you saw or read the first thread. In it, Chad disclosed that he had already been contacted by their lawyer. That ship has sailed. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

I have been accused of defending Espositos. That's not the case at all. What I have been doing is describing how these things play out AND challenging the OP to make his case publicly since he started down this misguided path of a trail by internet.

The problems with this approach are many. Instead of detente, starting a thread is escalation and one that is not insignificant. While this is a toy car to Chad, this is John's livelihood. Think about that for a second. How would any of you react if someone threatened your very means of surivival. Would you become more negotiable? I think the honest answer is most of you wouldn't. You would get angry, and most likely would strike back. At the very least you would use every means at your disposal to stop the attack, and at the worst you would go right back after the attacker for every cent and more they may be costing you.

I thought Chad understood that Friday when he indicated that he was going to pull the other thread, as requested by their attorney, and move forward from there. Someone appears to have given him advice offline and convinced him he needed to turn up the heat, not be intimidated by a lawyer, and go back at it. And that's where things really went off the rails.

If I'm Esposito, and the new thread goes up? The original problem probably doesn't control the situation anymore. Now anything and everything I do is to cost you every single cent in my power to get your car back AND I am going to try to get even more money out of you. And you're only talking to my lawyer. If there's a mediator, it's a mediator with my lawyer present. I won't take your calls. I won't acknowledge you at all unless I am served with a legal document. It's all in writing. It's all lawyer approved and supervised. It's a matter for the courts.

It doesn't matter if Chad is in the right. It doesn't matter if Chad has already been screwed once. This whole thing just got as difficult as humanly possible all because of the existence of this thread.

Threads like these bring out the worst in people. Look at all the people here who don't know John, have never done business with John, can't afford to do business with John, but are on the attack trying to take down a God, as one person described him. He's a man. He is human like us. He has been injured and sick and his livelihood is already suffering as a result. Now perfect strangers jump on the bandwagon and wish him out of business, call him all manner of names, and become just plain venomous people for no good reason other than to be spiteful. It's not a righteous fight. Nobody is vanquishing a dragon here. None of you outside of Don, actually know Chad.

Chad,
I have some advice for you. Multiple times since this started, you have mentioned your faith. I encourage you to pray. I encourage you to pray for compassion and empathy towards another man. Pray for your enemy. I think the solution to your problem will come in your faith and your humanity. You've been wronged. I honestly don't think he wants to screw you. I think if given a reasonable human chance he would attempt to do right by you. As Adam mentioned, you need to go in knowing you aren't going to get all of what you want. You will likely get most of it, even if the business closes it's doors. Get a lawyer. Make yourself amenable to a solution. If you listen to all this chatter about screwing the guy and go for the jugular it will end poorly for you both. I wish you a wonderful Sunday. Spend some time with your wife and son and revel in the beauty of the gift of life. You don't need all this negativity in your head making you more angry and aggressive. It's Sunday, and to be very cliche, I'm gonna ask you, WWJD?
I've seen these situations play out many times. Finding a well respected figure in the community that John knows and respects to negotiate a way out of this might still work, without lawyers. A lawyer is going to cost the shop owner more money and the longer this goes on the longer his stellar reputation gets called into question. And you have nothing to lose. I don't know the Cali Porsche Community well enough to recommend anyone, but that guy is out there, he always is. But like I said, you aren't going to get exactly what you want, but I can also guarantee if you drag this out with lawyers you aren't going to get anything you want.

---Adam
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Old 10-22-2017, 02:56 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #74 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by WANNA930 View Post
This is what happens when forums create forum super heros. You have guys and gals who have no clue of what a proper repair is swearing how great someone is.
This then keeps snowballing and you have someone who becomes unquestionable or you have a 100 people jump down your throat.

Before anybody comments they should know what they are talking about. Making someone out to be something they not is wrong. This always happens until they get a customer who actually knows what they are paying for then we get these WTF posts.

There are a lot of shops that I wouldn't bring a go-cart to that are praised on here daily.
If I read correctly in the previous thread, apparently a common practice is to dimple paint with a pencil to simulate factory welds
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Last edited by pmax; 10-23-2017 at 07:45 PM..
Old 10-22-2017, 05:54 PM
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Sorry guys but despite John having the OP's car the only option in my opinion is rain holy f'n hell down on anyone that pulls this **** with the fury and vengeance that only the internet can provide.. John made many mistakes leading up to last week and if he thinks he has any type of leverage or an upper hand he is severely mistaken. OP has every right to quite literally destroy John and everything he is worth until he gives him his car back and to be honest I would be asking for a huge amount of the $54k back as well. OP has him by the balls big time. Any advice of backing down, initiating a mediator etc are actually the options that John should be considering. John should have settled this on the spot with the OP but instead he had his morals and ethics ass backwards that day. At the point that I saw the first thread I would have had my attorney very hurriedly draftup an agreement that consisted of terms of surrendering the car back to the OP in exchange of a gag order. If I were the OP I wouldn't have agreed to sign without the previously mentioned cash on top of my car. You guys are way too easy on someone that quite literally is stealing thousands of dollars from a fellow porsche enthusiast. If this was anyone but John there wouldn't have been a single thread in his defense. I suppose no different than certain celebrities defending the likes of Bill Cosby, OJ Simpson, etc
Old 10-22-2017, 08:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #76 (permalink)
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I tried the gentlemanly route. If you were able to ask my wife, even past girlfriends!, my co-workers, and Porsche friends, I would expect that they would confirm that. Granted, I am not as well known to some here as others may be. I am not interested in my popularity or whether I ever become famous; not typical Californian right? There are others very interested in this. I can only say that I trusted the reputation of the shop and from what I personally observed I thought my car was in good hands. I paid my money willingly. I own that. I am not now nor will I ever complain about the amount paid, unless you also ask whether I am happy with the results. I am not. I would have happily paid the money I did if the quality was there. It is clearly not. I do not know a single person that has commented on this thread or that knows Porsches that would accept the car in its current state. I signed up for a restoration and that is not what I got. My interest is in getting my car back. A very simple request.

I would also like to remind the readers here that I gave the shop a second chance to correct a page and a half of items that were reasonable and within the expectations of the agreement. Items like completing welds, removing sheet metal screws from the partially installed floors, making the transmission tunnel straight, removing rust from the inside of the doors where the skin meets the frame, and on and on. These items would have been on the list of items to get accomplished anyway by the shop, however the shop told me that the car was ready for paint. It clearly was not and I would not allow the car to move forward without the corrective items being rectified first. Not a single new item of work until the old stuff was finished first. Near the end, I was notified a few times that it was ready for the paint shop. My response was pretty much the same every time; are all of the items on the list completed? No? then please complete those before we move on.

My thread is all about the quality of the work; lack thereof more appropriately. This is not the standard for the industry at any price point. The shop's only response to the posts on any forum was that they stand behind the people and the work on my car. How is this possible? I am not trying to poke the bear here. The work is sub standard, as a matter of fact, not simply my opinion. I have had multiple experts look at the car with the same conclusion. None of which would have had any reason to care about which shop did the poor quality work, just that it was poor.

I knew that there would be tangents to my posting, rants if you will, arguments and lots of opinions. My goal was to expose what has happened to me by this shop by relaying only the truth. Points that are defensible and known to me personally. Had the work performed on my car been defensible in the industry, I wouldn't have an argument nor a leg to stand on here. I wouldn't be here fighting for my car. The work speaks for itself. My belief is that there is only one side with regard to the quality. If you see this as the quality to expect from this type of shop with the reputation it had, please explain.
My own business reputation is built on high quality work. If the work doesn't meet the contract and the expectations established by the industry for work of the type, we would be outed by clients and the word of mouth would damage the business opportunities available to us. I couldn't sue them or hold their project hostage until they said nice things about me. I could expect them to say not so nice things about the work. If the not so nice things were untruths, then I would have action against them. If the not so nice things were true, and they damaged my ability to do business, I wouldn't have anything left to do but try to EARN my reputation back with good hard honest work. The same thing happens at any business. If you turn out an inferior product, you'll have negative things said about you. In the same way that if you turn out product that meets or exceeds expectations, your reviews will be stellar and people will come back and spread the word. Why would I be condemned by some for shining a light on poor quality work? For me, it's simple and clear...I paid for the reputation and quality of a specific type. I received far less than that. I complained and requested corrections providing the shop an opportunity to cure the situation. They did not. I will not continue to subject myself and my family to that, just like you wouldn't keep buying a bad hamburger without asking for your money back and never returning.

@Matt -
1 - Please don't assume anything about my car, my hobby, my income or anything related. I am blessed to have the income to pursue this hobby, but make no mistake, $53k is still $53k no matter how much you make. Take $53k from Seinfeld and deliver my car to him...Would he blow off the $53k? I think not, and I am no Seinfeld. John's livelihood is his to foster and protect. Mine is, too. I paid up. Did he give me what I bargained for?

2 - I ask you, if you turned out a bad transmission ( or more specifically a bad limited slip), wouldn't you expect a complaint? If the complaint was that it didn't lock as it was supposed to, wouldn't the customer send it back? If once you received it, opened it up, and discovered that a critical piece had not been properly installed, wouldn't you OWN that and apologize to the customer and fix it? Returning to them what they had originally contracted for? You might even offer a free Guards T-Shirt just to sweeten it up a bit so they don't write a 4 out of 5 stars. In the same way that you have a stellar reputation in the industry for your high quality product and workmanship, I ask you to consider the same of this shop. Did I get what I paid for? Did I offer an opportunity for them to make it right? Did I provide ample time to correct it? Did the shop offer anything to me to make me whole? The internet, and for that matter the public forum, cannot be had in one singular direction. Can't have it both ways!


I will happily come to the table....but I will not give up on the truth. Out of LOVE I will stay strong....I will not operate or react out of fear.

Last edited by Sixtyseven911; 10-23-2017 at 06:43 PM.. Reason: My religious beliefs I deem irrelevant to the thread
Old 10-22-2017, 09:39 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #77 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sixtyseven911 View Post

@Matt - 2 things -
1 - Please don't assume anything about my car, my hobby, my income or anything related. I am blessed to have the income to pursue this hobby, but make no mistake, $53k is still $53k no matter how much you make. Take $53k from Seinfeld and deliver my car to him...Would he blow off the $53k? I think not, and I am no Seinfeld. John's livelihood is his to foster and protect. Mine is, too. I paid up. Did he give me what I bargained for?
Only assumption I have made is that you're not a fool, because only a fool would undertake a six figure restoration that he can't afford. I'm not putting you in competition with John. I am presenting perspective of what the situation likely means to him in comparison in what it means to you. There's no value judgment there. I am not making him more important than you. I am suggesting that the situation may be more important to him that it is to you.

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Originally Posted by Sixtyseven911 View Post

2 - I have been praying for some time now and will continue. I have many doing the same for me and for the shop. I ask you though, if you turned out a bad transmission ( or more specifically a bad limited slip), wouldn't you expect a complaint? If the complaint was that it didn't lock as it was supposed to, wouldn't the customer send it back? If once you received it, opened it up, and discovered that a critical piece had not been properly installed, wouldn't you OWN that and apologize to the customer and fix it? Returning to them what they had originally contracted for? You might even offer a free Guards T-Shirt just to sweeten it up a bit so they don't write a 4 out of 5 stars. In the same way that you have a stellar reputation in the industry for your high quality product and workmanship, I ask you to consider the same of this shop. Did I get what I paid for? Did I offer an opportunity for them to make it right? Did I provide ample time to correct it? Did the shop offer anything to me to make me whole? The internet, and for that matter the public forum, cannot be had in one singular direction. Can't have it both ways!
Here's that same rubbish again. I am not defending JE's actions. I said in the first thread that he should own his shyte and it was my expectaion that in the end game he would because I personally believe him to be a good person. What's not clear about that? Of course I would do as you suggest. I have challenged you to prove your claim, but I have never suggested that if it is as you claim(which I have no reason to doubt) he wouldn't need make you whole. I don't know how to state it any more plainly. Never once have I said the shop handled this properly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixtyseven911 View Post
A note about prayer as it relates to this Sunday morning. I left the local Porsche meet in La Canada this morning early to get home in time to go to church. I hate being late for church. The preacher today said something that I connected with. Pretty typical. There's always something! He asked for anyone that was holding onto something that they were ashamed of or was a sin or something that was making them angry to let it go and lift it up in prayer. I took the opportunity to pray for John, Laurina, and I. To give control over to the only one who truly has it. To remain committed to the truth and allow only that to guide ALL of our actions. Please pray for all of us if you would. Pray we get to the table to work this out soon! I will happily come to the table....but I will not give up on the truth. Out of LOVE I will stay strong....I will not operate or react out of fear.
Funny how we seem to hear what we need to hear. If you hold onto this, I think you'll go the right direction and end up in the right place. I'm going to drop out of your thread now. You're never going to convince me that putting this thread up was productive or a good idea. There's no reason we need to agree. I'm happy to chat via PM if you have more you would like to say to me. I won't see it if it's here. I wish you the best and I hope you get your car back.
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Last edited by Matt Monson; 10-23-2017 at 04:49 AM..
Old 10-23-2017, 04:45 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #78 (permalink)
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Why do you keep engaging with this Matt? You stated your perspective very eloquently several posts back.

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Old 10-23-2017, 05:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #79 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt930s View Post
Why do you keep engaging with this Matt? You stated your perspective very eloquently several posts back.

MattR
***buttsnorkling***

(butt true)
Old 10-23-2017, 09:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #80 (permalink)
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