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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mocker View Post
And, for the record, one of those data points is the car I bought in January 2016, for $73k.
Hilarious. So one of the data points - your data point - is at $73K. So in the 'real world' you bought a 930 for $73K. And then I see several of your very special points - one at $60K and two others in the mid-$90K area that actually sold, hilariously you are coming after me that I said this car is worth somewhere in the $80K region.

May I suggest that you look at your own data points. Guess everyone lives in their own reality - this just proves it.
Old 02-02-2018, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Mocker View Post
I think you'll be proven wrong. There's a place for bone-stock 930s, but a carefully modified car with the right parts have--and will continue to--sell for equal money, if not more.
Agree. A Kremer sold @ Mecum Kissimmee last year for around $400K and a DP was unsold this year @ $300K. In as much to mention as Mecum, according to many posts, is not Bonhams, Gooding, RM etc. I did not see many stock 930s getting near those numbers. Besides a well modded 930 is an acquired taste not yet experienced by many interested in the emerging air cooled market cars. I have both types and evolved into wanting vintage built ( DP, Kremer, RUF also others from CA builders like Andial ) 930s from the 70s & 80s primarily as they are better in so many ways than the showroom models from that time. The factory themselves continued to improve the air cooled turbos in just about every way, mostly from track experience. Not for everyone but what's not to like and to want a 930 like that?
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Last edited by voitureltd; 02-02-2018 at 10:35 AM..
Old 02-02-2018, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by voitureltd View Post
930s from the 70s & 80s primarily as they are better in so many ways than the showroom models from that time. The factory themselves continued to improve the air cooled turbos in just about every way, mostly from track experience. Not for everyone but what's not to like and to want a 930 that?
Never said which was better, which was more desirable, which is improved or dis-improved.

As the data suggests the numbers are all over the place, and I do not count the 'no sales' or the 'reserve not mets' or ultimately one automotive auction site as the authority on price - as these mean nothing unless there is a real sale.

A couple sales here or there on modified cars which are an anomaly themselves really can't be taken as 'what they are worth.' To some guys who own 930s or modified 930s, obviously they think that their opinion means all, that they know, that they are somehow privy to how pricing works beyond the rest of us.

I say bet the other way. But then again, it only takes two people to get into a bidding war for one item that the other wants.







Old 02-02-2018, 09:23 AM
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[QUOTE=SalParadise;9910882]Never said which was better, which was more desirable, which is improved or dis-improved.
I say bet the other way. But then again, it only takes two people to get into a bidding war for one item that the other wants.

I think the RUF car is a very nice example of a 930 that will be more fun and desirable ( valuable) than other 930s for certain people ( like me ). It seems many have not experienced such a car if one thinks it is a sub $100K value. Of course the future of values will play out as new buyers experience different versions of 930, now it is just our opinions.

Like this guy
[QUOTE=83 BTR;9910770]I have an 83 conversion done by Alois. They could not have RUF VIN's at that point as RUF did not have us approval for the engine. To see the value it is good to take a car to the track. I passed stock 930's like they were standing still. Better breaking (RUF brakes), Lighter ~2700lbs, And more power.
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Last edited by voitureltd; 02-02-2018 at 10:47 AM..
Old 02-02-2018, 09:42 AM
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[QUOTE=SalParadise;9910882]Never said which was better, which was more desirable, which is improved or dis-improved.

As the data suggests the numbers are all over the place, and I do not count the 'no sales' or the 'reserve not mets' or ultimately one automotive auction site as the authority on price - as these mean nothing unless there is a real sale.

A couple sales here or there on modified cars which are an anomaly themselves really can't be taken as 'what they are worth.' To some guys who own 930s or modified 930s, obviously they think that their opinion means all, that they know, that they are somehow privy to how pricing works beyond the rest of us.

I say bet the other way. But then again, it only takes two people to get into a bidding war for one item that the other wants.




The very well done and documented modified 930, as referenced by voitureltd, is an anomaly in price BECAUSE it is an anomaly in its build as well. There is a direct correlation there that you fail to grasp. While you may not understand the correlation, it is clearly there.

And to say that these “can’t be taken as what they are worth” after having just gone through the most fundamental of price discovery methods - a live auction - is to not understand what price discovery is. Let’s not forget that a car that sells at auction for 300k had someone else willing to pay 295k for it that lost out. How you can justify that it’s not worth that exact price at that specific moment in time makes no logical sense. That’s the market telling you what it was worth, you’re just not listening.
Old 02-02-2018, 09:43 AM
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Refusing to sell a car for what it is worth doesn’t make the car less valuable. No sales do matter.
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Old 02-02-2018, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SalParadise View Post
Hilarious. So one of the data points - your data point - is at $73K. So in the 'real world' you bought a 930 for $73K. And then I see several of your very special points - one at $60K and two others in the mid-$90K area that actually sold, hilariously you are coming after me that I said this car is worth somewhere in the $80K region.

May I suggest that you look at your own data points. Guess everyone lives in their own reality - this just proves it.
If you took the time to look at the auction where I bought my car (http://https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1979-porsche-930-2/), you'll see that it had needs that the current Ruf car doesn't have. The current car has a very nice paint job and much lower miles. My car still needs a respray. There were some other goofy things about my car (weird front valance, missing sport seats, an oh-so-1989 aftermarket stereo complete with speakers built into the top door rails ) that also brought the price down.

I paid a fair price for a modified 930 that had some needs. The current car under discussion is nicer than mine and is worth more. You say "hilarious," I say "rational."
Old 02-02-2018, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mocker View Post

I paid a fair price for a modified 930 that had some needs. The current car under discussion is nicer than mine and is worth more. You say "hilarious," I say "rational."
Rational? To overpay for a 930 that needs a respray?

You say you paid a fair price for your car. Many people would disagree, including me. I believe you overpaid and you are having a hard time coming to terms with this. In fact, you will never come to terms with this because you got caught up on a auction site and paid more than the last guy.

Needs a full respray? Figure more than $9K. Last 911 body I saw painted was more than $19K.

If you're trying to say that this car is worth more than yours because you purchased a car with needs - it means nothing. Most people would not have paid what you paid so you cannot compare.

You overpaid - plain and simple. You cannot use a well-used 930 that needs paint on an auction site such as BaT as a market watermark.

Many people are buying 930s as investments - not as some go-fast car. A Vette Z06 C5 will smoke a 930 for $75K less and many people know this. Many people want a stellar 930 for a collection, because they are now collectibles.

My bet is that 1) Original 930s 2) 930s with original paint 3) True matching numbers are and will always win and 4) 930s without conversions and stories.

A modified 930 like this is going to appeal to a select group. But it, like yours, will never be original again. So a car like yours and a car like this is I guess something akin to a 911 SC backdate. Who knows where it will end up. Whatever that this it's too high.

Go out in your garage, look at your paint, and you know I'm right.
Old 02-02-2018, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by SalParadise View Post
Many people are buying 930s as investments - not as some go-fast car. A Vette Z06 C5 will smoke a 930 for $75K less and many people know this. Many people want a stellar 930 for a collection, because they are now collectibles.

My bet is that 1) Original 930s 2) 930s with original paint 3) True matching numbers are and will always win and 4) 930s without conversions and stories.

A modified 930 like this is going to appeal to a select group. But it, like yours, will never be original again. So a car like yours and a car like this is I guess something akin to a 911 SC backdate. Who knows where it will end up. Whatever that this it's too high.
I agree and I have skin in the game.
I own a 930 with Ruf parts and a engine assy. by Andial with some choice Andial mods. It performs better in every measurable way to a stock 930, off boost drivability and power is better because of the higher compression and more displacement of the Ruf P&C's. With the Ruf 5-speed transmission 1st gear is lower coupled with the more powerful off boost engine the standing start city driving is better than stock. The taller gears and more power make highway driving much easier than a comparably wimpy stock 930.
But the average collector is not interested in that, and they are the ones spending the big money for these cars.
They are exceptions, but stock wins in value retention with 930's.
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Old 02-03-2018, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by SalParadise View Post
Hilarious. So one of the data points - your data point - is at $73K. So in the 'real world' you bought a 930 for $73K. And then I see several of your very special points - one at $60K and two others in the mid-$90K area that actually sold, hilariously you are coming after me that I said this car is worth somewhere in the $80K region.

May I suggest that you look at your own data points. Guess everyone lives in their own reality - this just proves it.
Reality is at 110k with 4 days to go, you are off by almost 50% at this time.
Old 02-03-2018, 05:35 AM
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Getting interesting. Seller will probably pass unless bidding takes the last seconds bidding ramp.
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Last edited by voitureltd; 02-03-2018 at 04:11 PM..
Old 02-03-2018, 04:08 PM
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I find this discussion informative - thanks.
I’m reminded that it can be hard to distinguish “my market” from “the market”, or even a market from a market niche within or adjacent. One of the fun things about markets is that they can get non-linear at the extremes - like thinly traded items. Among deep-dyed Porsche enthusiasts, being non-linear is in the DNA - often while arguing all is clear, certain & perfectly rational. Entertaining emotions.

Last edited by drauz; 02-04-2018 at 01:38 AM..
Old 02-04-2018, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by turbo owner View Post
Reality is at 110k with 4 days to go, you are off by almost 50% at this time.
What people are failing to see is that in my infinite wisdom, $110K is too high.

I said what I believe it's worth. To some it's worth more. It only takes two.

The 930 market is a special market because it's a special car. I would say at this point people are realizing how special it is and they are saying (especially Porsche people) "How come we never saw it coming? In many ways, production on the early 930s is even less than other special Porsches (ie. RS). Wow, now I see it. It's becoming clear and I would like to have one."

People in the know and with the money will buy the best car. They will. One needing no paint, no interior work, no special parts. Because these things cost money.

Not only that (and this is the most important thing to realize about classic Porsches), if you take a 930 needing paint, needing interior, needing parts it still is not simple math. Adding those things to a worn car does not equal the same value of the nicer car. Never ever. They are only original once. And this applies especially to 930s in the market right now.

Best of luck to 930 people who bought worn cars at high prices - and modified Euro cars like this one. Don't expect them to be an investment as other 930s. They are just not as special. And the market will see this.
Old 02-04-2018, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by SalParadise View Post
What people are failing to see is that in my infinite wisdom, $110K is too high.

I said what I believe it's worth. To some it's worth more. It only takes two.

The 930 market is a special market because it's a special car. I would say at this point people are realizing how special it is and they are saying (especially Porsche people) "How come we never saw it coming? In many ways, production on the early 930s is even less than other special Porsches (ie. RS). Wow, now I see it. It's becoming clear and I would like to have one."

People in the know and with the money will buy the best car. They will. One needing no paint, no interior work, no special parts. Because these things cost money.

Not only that (and this is the most important thing to realize about classic Porsches), if you take a 930 needing paint, needing interior, needing parts it still is not simple math. Adding those things to a worn car does not equal the same value of the nicer car. Never ever. They are only original once. And this applies especially to 930s in the market right now.

Best of luck to 930 people who bought worn cars at high prices - and modified Euro cars like this one. Don't expect them to be an investment as other 930s. They are just not as special. And the market will see this.
Well apparently someone feels it's worth more than you, I really have no opinion on the car. I will agree with you that the 930 is a special car.

People with money will pay the most for the very special and nicest cars. There are those who like to do projects, I have a car like that, spent a lot of money on it after the fact but I was able to defer payment over a longer period of time the car turned out pristine and I'm happy with it.

Tim Lingerfelt did the body and paint work and you'll be hard-pressed to find a flaw on this car the interior is original and in perfect condition including the radio, that was my project that I enjoy doing so I guess to each his own

Last edited by turbo owner; 02-05-2018 at 09:42 AM..
Old 02-05-2018, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo owner View Post
Reality is at 110k with 4 days to go, you are off by almost 50% at this time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SalParadise View Post
What people are failing to see is that in my infinite wisdom[sic], $110K is too high.
"Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts."
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Old 02-05-2018, 10:40 AM
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$150K, 2 hours to go...
Old 02-07-2018, 10:01 AM
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Yep.
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Old 02-07-2018, 10:14 AM
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$150K, 2 hours to go...
158k now, low balled big time at 80k
Old 02-07-2018, 10:17 AM
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160k with 7 minits to go
Old 02-07-2018, 12:03 PM
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Sold @ $160k.
Old 02-07-2018, 12:13 PM
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