944S/951 Wheels/Brakes

Sternn · 09-05-2002, 01:14 PM

Question for you gurus out there. I am upgrading my car all over (as many of you noticed from my previous posts) and just bought a set of front and rear 951 calipers to throw on my 944S. I'm thinking this will work (am I wrong?) and I also want to change out the rotors while I am in there with some cross drilled rotors.

So the question is:

1. Do I need anything special to add these calipers on?

2. Do I go with standard 944S rotors, or do I need 951 rotors now, or are they the same?

3. What size rims do I need to fit with these calipers underneath?

4. Will standard 17" twists be ok on my car with this under-wheel setup?

I am looking at a set of 17" twists off a boxer that even though abused, will look nice once I get them cleaned up and chromed.

Anything I am missing here? Anything else I need? Thanks in advance.

Pilot_951S · 09-05-2002, 06:16 PM

At the rear the 951 calipers will bolt right up. You will also need the spacer washers for these calipers and 951 brake rotors.

At the front you have two choices:

#1 buy a set of Turbo/S2 steering knuckles, and a set of regular 951 brake rotors.

#2 get rid of the 951 calipers and get the M030 S4 calipers with an adapter block made for a big red front brake upgrade that would normally fit the 944 8v and 944S. also get Turbo S front rotors.

In either case you will be required to run 16" wheels.

The basic problem lies in the fact that the front spindles of your car do not have the same caliper mounting positions as the 951.

You will also need to change the brake bias valve from your current one to the correct 944 Turbo valve.

ae1969 · 09-05-2002, 07:14 PM

The only other thing that may be a problem......

The strut assembly had to be swapped on mine (86NA) to allow the front spindles to bolt up. The two bolts that attach to the spindle are about 1/4 inch further apart...... otherwise it would of been a straight swap.

Otherwise its actually a fairly easy swap.

Sternn · 09-06-2002, 12:26 PM

Cool. Thanks for the help. I have noticed the 951 rotors and 944S rotors are listed as seperate items, even on preformance sites that sell cross drilled rotors. Will 951 rotors fit on the 944S (I'm guessing they will, but still wonder why they make ones that are different). I plan on buying new cross drilled rotors anyhow, so I need to get the 951 rotors in the front, and 944S rotors in the back?

I also plan on buying new shocks anyhow, if I get a set of koni yellows, will that fix the bolt/spindle problem?

Pilot_951S · 09-06-2002, 12:41 PM

Lets start over.

If you use the 951 brake calipers you need the 951 brake rotors. Doesn't matter if they are front or rear.

DO NOT USE CROSS DRILLED BRAKE ROTORS!

They do not offer any performance advantage, they will wear out faster, they will crack, they will "cheese grater" your brake pads, and they no longer have enough mass to work under high load conditions.

Sternn · 09-06-2002, 12:44 PM

Yeah, but they look so damn good!

Pilot_951S · 09-06-2002, 12:53 PM

If you say so

If anything go with slotted, at least there is no performance deacrese with slotting.

Sternn · 09-09-2002, 10:17 AM

Ok, so I got a set of standard 951 rotors (not slotted or drilled) from an 86 951 plus ripped the front steering knuckles off there as well. Anything else you can think of I might need before undertaking the switch?

Thanks again for everything.

Britwrench · 09-09-2002, 11:26 AM

The '87 and onwards use different steering geometry, I don't think that '86 steering knuckles are compatable.

Pilot_951S · 09-09-2002, 11:46 AM

You will be making your life difficult using 86 951 peices, you need 87 or 88 parts. As I'm sure you are aware the 86 951 has "short" control arms, and a totally different method for mounting the brakes and rotors. Get a set of 87 or 88 regular 944 Turbo knuckles (not M030), or alternatively the knuckles from a 89-91 944 S2 (not M030) or 92-95 968 (not M030). These are all the same. Also get the front rotors for these knuckles.

tifosiman · tifosiman's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Pilot_951S
You will be making your life difficult using 86 951 peices, you need 87 or 88 parts. As I'm sure you are aware the 86 951 has "short" control arms, and a totally different method for mounting the brakes and rotors. Get a set of 87 or 88 regular 944 Turbo knuckles (not M030), or alternatively the knuckles from a 89-91 944 S2 (not M030) or 92-95 968 (not M030). These are all the same. Also get the front rotors for these knuckles.

AND, don't forget the late model 87 or 88 non-M030 front 951 struts. The N/A struts would need to be modified and 2 mm shims would need to be fabricated. I tried this route and gave up and just aquired the 951 struts instead.

Check my sig for what my brake upgrade looks like.

Tifo

951carter · 09-09-2002, 09:44 PM

Geez Sternn, all this money you are dropping in your S you could just buy this 88' turbo i have for sale and be done with it =))

Come on by and i guarantee after 1 drive you will forget all about the S =)) Especially after you go for a ride in "Big Red" -my 86'- and see what these blown 944s can do when you throw a truckload of $ at 'em =)

Dutchfly · Dutchfly's Garage

951 Brake calipers should bolt right onto your 944S. Most preferable is the version that uses brake pads without the silencers (non Turbo-S). They are the best technical choice.
You must use 951 rotors when you want to do the upgrade. Get the OEM ones, they are superb! Do not mount cross drilled rotors, you will regret your decision if you do so.

Recommendable brake pads are the PERFORMANCE FRICTION Z-rated carbon metallic pads. They need quite a few mile to get broken in, but once they're broken in, man you have to watch your review mirror to check for upcoming traffic!

Your rims need to be at least 16-inch to go with the 951 brakes.

By the way, wise choice to put 951 brakes on your 944S. Going fast ist one thing, but being able to stop is another.

Peter

tifosiman · tifosiman's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Dutchfly

By the way, wise choice to put 951 brakes on your 944S. Going fast ist one thing, but being able to stop is another.

Peter

Agreed. That's why I did mine. Some one on the Rennlist 944/944s/944s2 board actually stated to me that no 944N/A needs brakes that good. I say that you can't have brakes that are too good.....

Just my opinion.

Tifo

Sternn · 09-10-2002, 11:24 AM

How much for the '88 951 (just curious)

I am revamping my S from the ground up, since I blew the whole head and I have to spend big $ anyway.

What started with one set of blown valve springs has become:

New valve springs all the way around ($1200)
New belts & rollers ($250)
New waterpump ($170)
New head nuts ($10)
New valve guides ($68)
New gaskets ($142)
New cam chain tensioner ($280)
New thermostat & seals ($25)

And while I was in there...
New sway bar and mounts ($250)
New luggage retractor ($75)
New calipers ($500)
New spacers ($50)
New air filter system ($150)
New exhaust ($250)
New hood ($170)
New strut brace ($200)
New rims ($1000)
New tires ($1000)
New nose panel ($150)
New rear valance ($250)
New scoop ($150)
New chip ($250)

And now I am searching for...
New steering knuckles and rotors.

Thats not including the price of the NOS system I am buying piece by piece as well and installing ($800+ and counting) and the koni yellows I am looking at installing as well. Oh, and I'm going to have to buy bolts, bushings, and pads for the calipers too.

I figured once I passed the few thousand dollar mark I might as well just go all out. Once I am done though, I will have THE best 944S out there

Sternn · 09-10-2002, 11:49 AM

Oh, one more thing, where is the bias valve on a 944S/951? I know what they are, but I have never changed one. Are they on all models or just models with ABS?

tifosiman · tifosiman's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Sternn
Oh, one more thing, where is the bias valve on a 944S/951? I know what they are, but I have never changed one. Are they on all models or just models with ABS?

They all have them. Non-ABS have them on the master cylindar, the ABS cars have them inside the fender (you have to remove the plastic liner, I *think* it is driver's side? Not sure, my car doesn't have ABS).

Tifo

951carter · 09-10-2002, 12:26 PM

I was going to ask $9k for it, but i could work with you if you want it. Everything on it has been replaced.

I believe that i have an extra set of koni's that i could part with. I also have a set of rear coilovers i may part with.

Sternn · 09-10-2002, 12:30 PM

Really? How much for the koni's? I'm not trying to sound like an idiot (I'm more of an engine guy - this brake/suspension thing is new to me), but I'm not sure what rear coilovers are, but I'm thinking I probably am going to need some new ones once you tell me what they are

951carter · 09-10-2002, 12:45 PM

The rear of these cars do not have springs, they have Torsion bars intead. The T-bars are a PITA to replace or reindex. Which means if you want to put on stiffer front springs(which you will) you have to put on stiffer T-bars in the back. The whole rear suspension has to be dropped to change/reindex the bars.
However, you can just pop on a set of rear coilovers to stiffen the back to match the front, this involves 2 bolts per side =)
You can leave the T-bars in the back and use helper springs, or you can remove the T-bars and run just the rear coilovers.

Physically the coilovers are like the regular shock but they have threaded bodies and springs, the threaded bodies and perches make them heigth adjustable.

T-bar removal and adjustment:
http://www.tech-session.com/Paragon/Tech/944_tbar_removal.htm

Rear coilovers:
http://www.*****************.com/

I'll give you the fronts for $300 and the rear for $400.......you can come get 'em today if you want =)