Effects of Ethanol in gas

[Coos Bay]

In Oregon it will soon be mandatory that all gas stations have at least 10% ethanol in the gas. Im concerned about the repercussions of this on my 356 engine and my 911 CIS engine.
Is there anything we can "add" to the fuel to help these older engines? Any ideas, thoughts or recommendations?

Thanks, Roger in Coos Bay, Oregon

[pwd72s]

You'll need to do a bit of jet tuning on your 356..probably to bigger jets. Any good mechainc with a exhaust gas analyzer can help you there. CIS? I know zilch about the system. But as the alcohol content goes up, you need to run richer. Oh...also, look for your mileage to drop.

[VFR750]

We've had 10% ethanol for the past couple of years with no ill effects notice on my 911SC.

However, I keep the tank filled up, and I drive it fairly often to keep the fuel moving through it.

I am worried about corrosion of the fuel distributor and injectors, so for the first time I added STABIL for the winter storage. I did this for many years with my motorcycles, and I never had a problem with them in the Spring. (2-4 month storage)

My guess is the carbs are at less risk than the CIS. But as long as the tank is full during the winter, the change of water condensate it lower, and the STABIL might help, might not.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Hi Roger:

Good sound advice from Paul & Mike,...

Alcohols have a very strong affinity for water so its imperative that the tank be kept filled (especially in that coastal environment) to minimize condensation.

Both CIS and carbureted cars are vulnerable to both water-based corrosion and the effects of Ethanol for different reasons and the use of Stabil is highly encouraged.

As Paul said, your mileage does suffer and you might need to adjust CO in your CIS car to make sure its not lean. You should perform a proper plug cut to examine the spark plugs on the 356 since you might need a small jetting change.

Hope this helps,

(people will unfortunately, pay very dearly for the politics of Ethanol as its REALLY a poor choice for motor fuels beyond competition usage,.... )

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by Steve @ Rennsport Systems

Hi Roger:



(people will unfortunately, pay very dearly for the politics of Ethanol as its REALLY a poor choice for motor fuels beyond competition usage,.... )

HUGE agreement here...alas, Oregon is politically left of Karl Marx, thus the new laws.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Steve @ Rennsport Systems

...
(people will unfortunately, pay very dearly for the politics of Ethanol as its REALLY a poor choice for motor fuels beyond competition usage,.... )

Now Now Steve....

Just because you get lower fuel economy with ethanol, a higher price per gallon (once subsidies are considered), and you take land out of food production, what, exactly is wrong with Ethanol?

[GothingNC]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Now Now Steve....

Just because you get lower fuel economy with ethanol, a higher price per gallon (once subsidies are considered), and you take land out of food production, what, exactly is wrong with Ethanol?

Ethanol helps keep the Fertilizer companies in business

[Bill in OKC]

Missouri has mandated 10% ethanol as of today. The pumps are not required to say it, and the stations snuck it in several months ago without telling anyone...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071231/ap_on_re_us/ethanol_law

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

HUGE agreement here...alas, Oregon is politically left of Karl Marx, thus the new laws.

Hi Paul:

This is not an "Oregon" issue; this is national in scope,....

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Now Now Steve....

Just because you get lower fuel economy with ethanol, a higher price per gallon (once subsidies are considered), and you take land out of food production, what, exactly is wrong with Ethanol?

Hi Harry:

Holy smokes,......where do I begin???

1) Ethanol is corrosive. It attacks all the elastomers in the fuel system and anything not Viton isn't long for this world.

2) Ethanol is hygroscopic as the dickens. Any and all moisture is absorbed and then attacks ferrous parts in the fuel system. In the case of CIS, the stainless steel parts in the fuel distributor suffer accordingly. Water-based corrosion is a problem for any carbureted or MFI system and requires diligence in maintenance procedures.

3) Ethanol has far less BTU's/gallon than gasolines as well as other alcohols. Even Butanol would have been a better choice. This sometimes requires mixture changes and fuel economy and performance both suffer. There are political arguments to be made about the need for 1/3 more fuel to travel the same distance.

4) Ethanol is not miscable. It tends to separate out of gasoline and thats not a good thing at all.


Now, Ethanol has a high octane rating so its good in some circumstances such as EFI'ed Turbo engines that require high-octane fuels to survive and one has full control over the fuel mixtures.


JMHO, but this E10, E15, and E85 situation will be an unintended windfall for the auto repair industry as people struggle with the effects of these fuels in cars that were not made for it. Politics Trumps Science,...(again).

[Bill in OKC]

Have any Pelicans in Missouri been having any "odd" fueling/engine problems in the last few months? It could be ethanol that you were not aware you were putting in your tank. I think the rest of us (I would for sure) would like to know what to expect.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Steve @ Rennsport Systems

Hi Harry:

Holy smokes,......where do I begin???

1) Ethanol is corrosive. It attacks all the elastomers in the fuel system and anything not Viton isn't long for this world.

2) Ethanol is hygroscopic as the dickens. Any and all moisture is absorbed and then attacks ferrous parts in the fuel system. In the case of CIS, the stainless steel parts in the fuel distributor suffer accordingly. Water-based corrosion is a problem for any carbureted or MFI system and requires diligence in maintenance procedures.

3) Ethanol has far less BTU's/gallon than gasolines as well as other alcohols. Even Butanol would have been a better choice. This sometimes requires mixture changes and fuel economy and performance both suffer. There are political arguments to be made about the need for 1/3 more fuel to travel the same distance.

4) Ethanol is not miscable. It tends to separate out of gasoline and thats not a good thing at all.


Now, Ethanol has a high octane rating so its good in some circumstances such as EFI'ed Turbo engines that require high-octane fuels to survive and one has full control over the fuel mixtures.


JMHO, but this E10, E15, and E85 situation will be an unintended windfall for the auto repair industry as people struggle with the effects of these fuels in cars that were not made for it. Politics Trumps Science,...(again).

Steve,

That sucks....

OK, so what is a poor boy (with CIS) to do?

[RoninLB]

E10 around here for years. No problems that I've ever heard of in cars.

Small boats report some big problems on E10.

That seems to be the max before problems really start as per PANO recent article.

BTW.. the Gulf area's dead zone, where the Mississippi drains, is presently within management. The expected added corn production run-off polution will put the dead zone out of control as it becomes enlarged. The whole Gulf could become a permanent dead zone. This and other issues of unintended consequences are confusing tree hugger groups.

[rs911t]

Steve, any words of wisdom (or hope) for those with MFI engines?

[Rick V]

Lets not leave out the lack of lubricant in the corn-fuel. Those old valve guides will just loooooooooooooove it.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Gents:

The problems ARE there; all you have to do is just start talking to the people in the auto repair industry who deal with these things (domestic or foreign).

D-Jetronic, L-Jetronic, and Motronic are largely unaffected aside from the potential for shortened fuel injector life.

CIS-equipped cars as well as carbureted ones are most vulnerable and to a slightly lesser degree, MFI'ed ones. Proactive maintence is the key for preventing expensive problems as outlined above. The only concern is that these cars are getting old and with the discontinuation of parts support by Bosch, it will not get better. My wife has an older CIS-injected M-B so I'm in the same boat,...

I use Stabil, Lubro-Moly Jectron, change fuel filters every 5K and keep the tank filled (for cars that are stored). I'm also very particular about where I buy fuel (high-volume stations) and pass them by if I see the big 18-wheeler refilling the underground tanks.

If you think you might have some water in the system, run the tank down to half, add a bottle of Heet, and take it for a good hard cruise to run it down to almost empty. Add some Stabil and fill 'er up.

[RWebb]

Steve, you use Stabil or Lubro-Moly Jectron? Or both together?

Also, this is something you do year-around?

[TRE Cup]

Steve W wrote
JMHO, but this E10, E15, and E85 situation will be an unintended windfall for the auto repair industry as people struggle with the effects of these fuels in cars that were not made for it. Politics Trumps Science,...(again).

and here is a logical conclusion; Repairs for this will never be cheap and the resulting pool of cars left over that actually get repaired will diminish. Repair costs getting close to (or exceed) street value will cause owners to change their minds about keeping/ fixing their cars yet again
So, in the end it will be "good" for the economy as people dump their older now unreliable cars for new ones off the showroom floor.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Steve, you use Stabil or Lubro-Moly Jectron? Or both together?

Also, this is something you do year-around?

Randy:

Stabil & Jectron do two different things.

I use Jectron 3 times a year depending on annual mileage and a little Stabil in every tankful.

When I store the cars for the winter, I use a healthy dose of Stabil just as I fill it up. Driving it back home gets the good stuff into the whole system,...

Brother Dave (TRECup) makes a point here about the cost-to-benefit ratio here. CIS-equipped cars will inevitably face conversion to some form of EFI to enable these to stay on the road and there are some decent options in this regard.

Given the overall solidarity-longevity of these cars, many folks will elect to either make the conversion or replace the motor with a later Motronic-equipped one as viable alternatives.

[GrantG]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Now Now Steve....

Just because you get lower fuel economy with ethanol, a higher price per gallon (once subsidies are considered), and you take land out of food production, what, exactly is wrong with Ethanol?

Well, since you ask, you lose power as well