PCA Rule Change- Weight with car AND driver

304065 · 11-10-2006, 12:19 PM

Don't know how long the rule change has been out, but I found this interesting:

8. Add 150 lbs to the minimum weights in all classes that have minimum weights and
weigh cars with drivers. - Approved.

This is the "Danica Patrick Rule," designed to equalize car weights and not penalize people who weigh more even though their car is at or above the minimum weight.

So in my own case, race weight was 2249, now it's 2399 including me. I weigh about 195 pounds, so the car can be lighter, down to 2204, and I can still make race weight.

The formula: Drivers weight - 150 = amount to lighten car, or in my case, 45 pounds has to come off somewhere.

But it does add another variable to fuel burn: sweat loss.

If you weigh less than 150 pounds you're going to have to ADD weight.

This should be an interesting way of equalizing for driver weight. We'll see how it works in practice.

Bravo PCA for having the flexibility to change the rules.

Jess · Jess's Garage

While I agree that most sanctioning bodies include the driver to come up with weight, I have no idea where PCA came up with 150lbs.

I've spent plenty of time in Club Race paddocks and believe me, guys weighing it at 150 are few and far between (Crosby and I are about it!)

I did a quick search and came up with the average US male being 189.5lbs. I think this would have made more sense to use as a standard.

Obviously, with the number set at 150, it makes no difference to me and my car. The difference is that the VAST majoriy of my competitors, like yourself, John, will be running lighter cars overall now.

Jess

emcon5 · emcon5's Garage

That is good news. I am all for not punishing the fat guys

Quote:

I have no idea where PCA came up with 150lbs

For what it's worth, NASA uses 180 lbs for their enduro rules. The car without driver can weigh up to 180 lbs less than the class "with driver" weight.

Tom

chrisp · 11-10-2006, 07:28 PM

Don't forget weight of gear: Helmet, Suit, HANS, Shoes, Gloves< FR Underwear. This could easily be another 7-10 lbs on you and out of the car. Hopefully your sweat is staying in the suit and helmet.

Manny Alban · 11-11-2006, 09:06 AM

I don't want to speak for the club racing folks, but my understanding was the weight was to help drivers in removing ballast from their cars. Per last year's rule, a driver who had a car that weighed 2750, but needed to weigh 2800 (without the driver), had to run 50lbs ballast. with the new rules, if that driver weighs 180lbs, the car has to weigh 2950lbs at the end of the race with the driver in the car. This should result in a 20lb reduction in ballast within the car (if I've got my math right). Of course, the other board has been pointing out that this rewards the folks who weigh over 150lbs.

jaydubya · 11-11-2006, 09:32 AM

I dont' think it rewards heavier drivers - it simply equalizes the playing field. In the past light drivers had a weight advantage, which in some cases could be over 100 lbs.

304065 · 11-12-2006, 07:16 AM

Manny, thank you for the input and for your continued commitment to PCA.

I can't imagine how someone could believe it rewards those who weigh over 150-- it's not like you can put carbon fiber body panels on, or make any other changes not permitted by stock class rules, to make weight. I suppose somebody could claim that a heavier driver means a lighter car, which allows you to reduce weight in additional areas beyond the traditional ones of front and rear bumpers, aluminum fuel cell instead of steel tank, etc., but again, the other rules haven't changed to allow this, and everybody makes the same initial changes to reduce weight.

Ballast is usually made of lead and bolted to the floor, so removing it probably doesn't help static weight distribution if the weight has to be made up somewhere else.

Dieting? Get the lead out!

Manny Alban · 11-12-2006, 08:10 AM

For me, the new rules mean that I ONLY have to lose 20lbs off my portly frame to be at the perfect zen weight with the car. I've lightened the car as much as it can be done legally. Fuel cell is out of the question because of cost and no performance enchancement.

coloradoporsche · 11-12-2006, 08:36 AM

The rule benefits everyone over 150. That's pretty straightforward, no?

I didn't do a lot to my car to get it under weight...no carbon fiber, etc. Manny is spot on. The rule change means I don't need to add ballast now whereas last year I did have to add about 40 lbs. Now, I am the ballast!

jaydubya · 11-12-2006, 12:48 PM

This will tie in nicely with a recent thread at Rennlist about prizes for podium finishers at PCA club races.

1st place: full slab of ribs, 1 lb mashed potatoes, candied yams, whole pumpkin pie, one fork, one knife, one spoon.

2nd place: gallon of ice cream (ben and Jerry's)

3rd place: box of bon bons

Manny Alban · 11-12-2006, 06:34 PM

So what's 6th or 7th where I usually finish....Hershey kisses

304065 · 11-13-2006, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by coloradoporsche
The rule benefits everyone over 150. That's pretty straightforward, no?

I didn't do a lot to my car to get it under weight...no carbon fiber, etc. Manny is spot on. The rule change means I don't need to add ballast now whereas last year I did have to add about 40 lbs. Now, I am the ballast!

Why would it benefit somebody over 150? The minimum race weight is the same whether you weigh 100 pounds or 200. Consider this example: 1971 911E, pre-rule min weight 2249#. Post-weight 2399.

Car with 200# driver must weigh 2199 empty.

Car with 100# driver must weigh 2299 empty.

Assuming that exactly the same steps are taken to lighten the car, the 2299# driver has to bolt 100# of lead under the passenger seat to make weight.

This actually improves the static weight distribution vs. having all 200# in the drivers seat.

I don't know what the vertical distribution of weight for a human is but I think most people would stipulate to a heavier driver carrying more weight higher up, certainly higher than the floor of the car.

Manny, the 911-specific cell is pricey, you may want to consider adapting a rectangular cell depending on whether you do Enduros or not. The big advantage of a cell is safety.

Jess · Jess's Garage

I suppose that a better way to put it is that we lighter drivers are losing an advantage that we had before.

Pre rule change, my driver-car combo (Euro SC in F stock)weighed 2700lbs while most of my F competition probably tipped the scales at 2750 (2552 car and 190-200lbs driver). Post rule change, me and my car will still weigh 2700lbs as will everyone else. The net of all this is I will be around fifty pounds heavier then before, compared to the other car-driver combos.

I have heard the argument made that this is all about safety. That it is an effort to lower the amount of ballast that we are having to bolt into our cars. If this is the case, I guess PCA is only concerned with the safety of the larger drivers since I still will have to run with 135lbs of lead and half a tank of fuel to make it.

Jess

jaydubya · 11-13-2006, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jess
since I still will have to run with 135lbs of lead and half a tank of fuel to make it.

Jess

Hmm... I'm wondering what you took off your SC to get it to that point while still staying within the rules for the stock/prepared classes...

I have fiberglass bumpers front and rear, no a/c, race seats, etc. and my car is at 2500 lbs with an empty tank. And that's with a roll bar, not a full cage. So that means your car is (2500 - (2550 - 135)) = 85 lbs lighter than mine? Plus the fuel weight?

Jess · Jess's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydubya
Hmm... I'm wondering what you took off your SC to get it to that point while still staying within the rules for the stock/prepared classes...

I have fiberglass bumpers front and rear, no a/c, race seats, etc. and my car is at 2500 lbs with an empty tank. And that's with a roll bar, not a full cage. So that means your car is (2500 - (2550 - 135)) = 85 lbs lighter than mine? Plus the fuel weight?

Damn,

Question a man's integrity after he helps to push your car to the scales in Utah

I introduced myself to you while you were waiting to be weighed, I was driving a yellow SC, #101.

I really don't know why my car is as light as it is, but it is. I have all the mods you mention and a full, bolt-in cage. Were you running Hoosiers? They're a good five pounds lighter than most other tires.

Believe me, my car has been scrutinized many, many times over the years. It is all legit.

Jess

jaydubya · 11-13-2006, 03:30 PM

No worries, not questioning your integrity, just want to learn the secrets

I'm in G class anyway

And I remember you! Thanks for the push! If you were there you probably know that I was underweight twice that weekend, so I'm very interested in understanding what people's SCs weigh

I guess I need to add some ballast for next year. I was finally able to make weight for the last race, but I had to put in a full tank of gas and the spare tire to do it.

I'm running Hoosiers too. Perhaps your car doesn't have a sunroof, being a euro model?

Hope you can make it out to MMP next year again.

Cheers,

Jeff

Jess · Jess's Garage

No worries here, Jeff.

I was just talking to my friend about car weights and he pointed out that the scales vary considerably from race to race. Consider that even if they're off by five percent, that's 126 pounds in our cars! I've raced all over the country and found that my car's weight can go up or down by over one hundred pounds in two weeks without touching it during that time.

This is why it's so important, in the stock classes, to take advantage of the open scale times, on your terms not the scruts!

I'll definitely be back for Miller, it was a blast!

You should consider Pueblo next year as well.

Also, what's the latest word on Vegas? I spoke to Tim Martin the other day and he said it's up to the Las Vegas region. Do you have any info?

Take care,

Jess

jaydubya · 11-13-2006, 03:55 PM

Good point about the scales varying - next time I'm getting on them on Friday!

I'd like to do Pueblo - no tow vehicle or trailer though, so if one of the locals has space I'll go.

The word I got on Vegas was that it became too expensive to rent. At the same time, MMP came online so that's where the switch came from this season. If you are hearing that it's up to another region, my guess is IRPCA is bowing out because of the cost and to focus on MMP. I'd like to do TWO club races at MMP

zzwhm · 11-14-2006, 01:47 AM

Wonder how PCA is addressing co-driven cars for Enduro. I'm 170# fully suited so if I share a car with a 220# driver and the car's set up for him who goes to the scales?
Bill

304065 · 11-14-2006, 06:24 AM

Bill, that is an excellent question. I'll ask the Rules Committee, but my guess is that the car's got to make weight with the lightest driver in it. Otherwise one could thwart the intention of the rules by having a 98 pound co-driver drive for most of the race, then switch to the heavier driver for scaling.