86 Cab, electric top help

notfarnow · 05:29 AM

My father recently took delivery of his 86 cab, found here on the PP classifieds. He and his wife have had it out a few times, and really love it. I'm headed up there (Montreal) in the next week or two to change the oil, install a kill switch and fiddle with a few other niggly issues.

Anyhow, dad called last night because he's having trouble with the power top. I did a search and read quite a few threads yesterday. The issue dad is having wasn't mentioned in any of those threads.

Here is what he explained:
-A couple weeks ago, when the roof was going UP it seemed to get fetched up against the windows, and the motor made a "clicking" sound. Since then, he's only put the roof up if the windows are down or the doors are open. Works fine like that.
-He went for a drive this weekend, and since then the roof won't go up.

He has checked the fuses and they seem fine.

QUESTIONS:
1) After reading the other threads, I wonder if the roof is out of adjustment ("clicking" when coming up to the windows), and as a result the switches for the "down" position aren't being tripped. Does that make sense?

2) In the meantime, can dad simply disengage the electric motors and use it as a manual top, until I get up there in a couple weeks to have a look? Does he simply use the tool provided in the toolkit, and that's it? Are there disadvantages to doing this, ie will we need to synch up the folding parts with the motors afterwards?

3) After reading the other (spooky) threads, I see that the power top mechanisms can be very, very expensive to maintain and replace. Would it make sense to disable to the power top altogether, and use it as a manual top while they own it? Is it as simple as disengaging the motors, and then rengaging them if they ever want to sell the car?

Thanks in advance. I'll try to get dad logged in, because troubleshooting by proxy is hard enough, even worse with a "middleman".

charleskieffner · 04-05-2007, 05:58 AM

yes its true they are very spendy to repair. since i have been down this trail.............disconnect motors. 2-3 yrs is not a long time for them to last, let alone cables.

takes me all of a minute to hit release button under dash, get out, lift top while folding cross bar down to bottom so as not to ruin rear window. put tonneau cover on, another minute.

explain it like this............if it ever takes a crap on you in the rain, i doubt he will have time to read manual and initiate emergency roof instructions to raise before interior is drenched. let alone get tool kit out of trunk in time.

save yourself alot of headaches and grab bentley manual to show step by step disconnect. i just installed all new window seals on mine, all around. they are stiff. when top placed on, you need to have windows down about an inch then raise windows to correctly seal against elements.

if you have deep pockets and want to jerk around with it for the rest of your ownership...........buy new mtrs and cables and enjoy working on it vs. driving it.

notfarnow · 06:51 AM

Thanks Charles!

I saw some of your posts about these issues, so I'm glad you're around. (HA, but when I posted about getting a trailer hitch for this car, I made sure you weren't )

About the Bently, I read in the other threads that the Bently manual has very little info about the cab top, but there is a factory manual for the top. Where do we find that?

In teh meantime, we do need to figure out how to use the roof until we can get a manual and troubleshoot it in a couple weeks.

My understanding of the procedure for disengaging the motors is to unscrew them with the factory tool with the roof down if possible. Re-engage the motors with the top up.

Is this correct?

charleskieffner · 04-05-2007, 07:12 AM

factory publication may be avail. thru vendor in back of excellance that sells books/tech manuals.

the only thing left electrical on mine is the switch on the dash to release front top at windshield. disconnect everything else so it may move freely. take side panals off in rear disconnect cables. pull wiring harness from motors. tape off from moisture. mines an 87 may be some little differences.

ask jeremyd in florida if he has cab tech manual to copy for you.

notfarnow · 04-05-2007, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by charleskieffner
factory publication may be avail. thru vendor in back of excellance that sells books/tech manuals.

the only thing left electrical on mine is the switch on the dash to release front top at windshield. disconnect everything else so it may move freely. take side panals off in rear disconnect cables. pull wiring harness from motors. tape off from moisture. mines an 87 may be some little differences.

ask jeremyd in florida if he has cab tech manual to copy for you.

Thanks again Charles

What is the advantage of disconnecting the cables and unplugging the motors? In the other threads, it mentions simply undoing the motors as per the Owner's Manual:

However, if disconnecting the cables would save on wear & tear of the folding mechanisms, then we'd do that too.

FWIW, here are the threads I was reading earlier and based my info on:

Cabriolet Top Troubles

Cabriolet Question

Please Give Me Your Cabriolet Top Advice

Power top to manual conversion

charleskieffner · 04-05-2007, 07:51 AM

less power drain to battery. i would just tape them to avoid any water intrusion/moisture and leave alone or zip ty. once you see how easy it is, youll ask yourself why spend the money. dump it on other items that may need repair. mines too simple and my friend does this all the time at porsche shop he works at. if people cool.......he'll clue them in. if their jerks...........he will gladly replace cables and motors every 3 or so years.

it really only takes less than a minute. ask me how i know??? got busted by PCA safety director 2 minutes before grid took off last weekend. had to put top up. came out of harnesses, pulled off tonneau, dropped top, hit button, and back into harnesses and off we went. zone 8 time trials state top must be up. pca national states top can be down if secured and occupants are wearing arm restraints(we were). basically got " we dont care how pca national does it, we are zone 8"! soooooooo thanks for reminding me i need to e-mail pca national about zone 8's grevious stupid " go by the book" error in judgement and basic lack of SAFETY CONSIDERATION! it is a major pain to see very fast cars at a closing rate equaling a BULLET when on the track!

but on the aero dynamics side of things..............jeremyd did testing and gained 7mph top end by having cab top up. in our case we told zone 8 we dont want a transponder for lap times, we want last place(43rd)........all we want to do is learn track and banking. so top speed or safety? i ll take safety any day when i have a GT3 cup car coming up my KEESTER at MACH SPEED!

911boost · 911boost's Garage

Jake, I had similar problems with my 86 electric top. I did what the manual said, and used the motors at the top of the windshield to lock the top down, and unlock it, and then raised / lowered it by hand.

My motors were fine, as were the cables, it was the transmission's I had problems with. Mine were a BMW part, and you don't want to know how much those cost.

Bill

notfarnow · 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BSiple
Jake, I had similar problems with my 86 electric top. I did what the manual said, and used the motors at the top of the windshield to lock the top down, and unlock it, and then raised / lowered it by hand.

My motors were fine, as were the cables, it was the transmission's I had problems with. Mine were a BMW part, and you don't want to know how much those cost.

Bill

Thanks Bill! So you never disconnected the cables? I wonder if there is any advantage to doing that?

Dad is happy to use the top as a manual one, especially if it will prolong the life of the top & mechanisms. But he doesn't want to do anything permanent to disable it.

I got a message from dad saying there is an "arm" that's broken off... it looks like it is supposed to hit a switch. I've asked him to take pictures.

He gets frustrated with stuff like this. Have to slow him down or he'll be out there with a crowbar & tape.

911boost · 911boost's Garage

Uggh, an arm that is broken off? That isn't good. I know certain parts of the top are made out of un-obtainable metal for some reason.

Like Charles, I disconnected the motors and and pulled the cables out of the transmissions (it pretty easy and straight forward to do) leaving them in the motors, so I wouldn't have to re route them if I did end up replacing the transmissions.

Post the pictures, and well take a look. You need to be careful that the top does not come down out of true. You don't want to snap any of the bows or anything.

Bill

charleskieffner · 04-05-2007, 09:23 AM

care of top...

1) buy 6-pack/ice

2) wet top throughly w/hose

3) wash throughly w/303 cleaner

4) have dad suck down brews and watch fer water leaks

5) scrub lightly

6) let dry completely in sun(hint: wet/dry vac will speed it up)

7) apply 303 protectorant on entire top. you will know its correct when water beads and falls off the same as water on freshly waxed hood

8) grab rest of beers before dad starts playing w/switches and buttons and finds more things for you to fix!

notfarnow · 04-05-2007, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BSiple
Like Charles, I disconnected the motors and and pulled the cables out of the transmissions (it pretty easy and straight forward to do) leaving them in the motors, so I wouldn't have to re route them if I did end up replacing the transmissions.

Ok, I'll probably do the same when I'm up there in the coming weeks.

Quote:

Originally posted by BSiple
Post the pictures, and well take a look. You need to be careful that the top does not come down out of true. You don't want to snap any of the bows or anything.

The top is currently down, and dad thinks that being "out of true" could be part of the problem... it got held up on one of the windows about a week ago. I'll post pics as soon as I get them. Thanks again for the suggestions!

Quote:

Originally posted by charleskieffner
grab rest of beers before dad starts playing w/switches and buttons and finds more things for you to fix!

LOL, I don't mind doing the work as long as I'm not paying for parts. I actually really look forward to working on this car, but dad could get wigged out over this kind of stuff.

charleskieffner · 04-05-2007, 09:37 AM

sedate dad w/more beers! easy does it always with these tops. remember always fold metal hoop downward when folding roof down. save yourself headaches wrecking clear window. other guys on here unzip and place terry cloth towel over it!

notfarnow · 04-05-2007, 09:42 AM

The car came with a special protective pad for the window, but unzipping it seems like a good idea.

Thanks again chuck, are you gonna be this helpfull when we're trying to get the hitch mounted?

I'll try to get dad to log in too. I think 911 ownership will be a lot easier for him if he gets comfy searching & asking questions himself.

notfarnow · 04-05-2007, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BSiple
Uggh, an arm that is broken off? That isn't good. I know certain parts of the top are made out of un-obtainable metal for some reason.

Ok, got the picture, and it doesn't look as bad as described. The lower "pad" doesn't seem to be meeting its switch, and the upper tab has fallen off.

I think the best course of action is to use the top manually for now.

We'll get the Porsche manual for the cab top (if we can get a copy), set everything right and then disable it. Then if he ever decides to sell, we can reconnect it.

Thoughts?

charleskieffner · 04-05-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by notfarnow
The car came with a special protective pad for the window, but unzipping it seems like a good idea.

Thanks again chuck, are you gonna be this helpfull when we're trying to get the hitch mounted?

I'll try to get dad to log in too. I think 911 ownership will be a lot easier for him if he gets comfy searching & asking questions himself.

regarding trailer hitch............."NO WAY JOSE!"

notfarnow · 04-05-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by charleskieffner
regarding trailer hitch............."NO WAY JOSE!"

We'll post pics the frst time we take a load to the dump

Charles, how hard is it to remove the cables?

charleskieffner · 04-05-2007, 11:16 AM

not bad. may need some needle nose long pliers. grease em with motocycle chain lube if you have some. next owner will thank you.

imcarthur · imcarthur's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by notfarnow
unzipping it seems like a good idea.

Just to leap in here . . .

Re: The Window

ALWAYS unzip the window & put it draping down behind the rear seat. And like Charles said, protect it with something soft (a towel) from the canvas that folds over it. And NEVER do it when it's sub-zero - always possible in Montreal.

If you do all this & use a good clear plastic cleaner occasionally, it should remain relatively scratch-free, so you can actually see out back.

Ian

notfarnow · 04-14-2007, 10:08 AM

GRRR

So, it looks like this is what happened:

The "pad" for the bottom limit switch broke off, which meant that the top came down too tight before the bottom limit switch was triggered.

Anyway, we've replaced the pad that is shown missing in the image above, and have tightened the "arm" bolts on the transmissions to re-engage eveything.

Everything seems to be lined up and the fuses are good, but we are getting NOTHING, other than some clicking from the relays at the passenger floor.

In the factory service manual for the power top, it doesn't really describe how to get everything "synched up" again after you've used thr top manually.

Any tips?

Halp!

notfarnow · 03:39 PM

Ok, we've narrowed it down.

We tested ALL the circuits, and the only thing that is acting up is the passenger side locking motor. It sounds like it's straining, and it's skipping once it has locked or unlocked that side.

What I don't understand is why this would stop the whole system from working. According to that factory service manual, the only switch in that top motor is the one for the indicator light on the dash.

From another thread:

Quote:

Originally posted by Aquavit
[B]Theory of operation in a few easy steps kind of like a computer programming flowchart:

1. Button is pushed to open top - IF microswitches in top are depressed AND upper OR Lower microswitch on passenger side transmission is NOT depressed, THEN rotate locking motors to open position. Microswitches Inside locking motors send signal to turn "top is up" warning light on.

2. IF Microsiwtches in top bar are open AND microswitchs on passenger side transmission are not depressed, turn on electric motors in back of car, retracting top.

QUESTION: Are there any microswitches within the locking motors that would interrupt the opening or closing sequences?