Should I buy

[mtelliott]

So, there's a person on this board that wants to sell his 928. I'm very interested, but have some questions that I thought I would throw out to the collective audience.

Year: 1985

Issues:
• Car runs well, when cold the idle will drop when coming to a stop sign and stall
• Warning lights on at instrumentation cluster –false warnings
• AC doesn't blow cold (but did last year)
• 130k+ miles on odometer
• Cruise control doesn't work
• No receipt on last timing belt change (not sure if water pump was done at that time)

Good:
• Minus a few dents and a broken front spoiler, the car is in good shape. Normal shrinkage of the vinyl.
• Torque tube bearings replaced at 128K
• Seller seems to be a nice, honest, trust worthy guy.
• Tires have plenty of life in them


My next step would be to take if for a test drive and then get a PPI done. I just wanted to get some collective group think on what I'm looking at for fixing these things. Price is good for condition. My greatest fear is electrical gremlins that I could be chasing for years. I figure a PPI can give the info on engine compression / leakdown as well as normal areas, but not many folks in Denver know 928’s. The two shops that I have talked to are “don’t buy it”. I guess they feel they are money pits.

All right, let me have it.

Michael

[Danglerb]

Its not about honesty, its like asking a parent to point out the flaws in their children, some owners just don't see any. I try to keep my questions to owners on the facts, when did they buy it, what service has been done, who did it, and why are they selling.

Unless you know the shop that did the work, you really can't assume that any repairs were done properly or completely, and this goes double for dealer service.

Check your local resources, you need a person with 928 experience for the PPI, and you need a mechanic if the PPI person isn't one, to do the lift work in the PPI and bail you out when you just can't work on the 928 yourself.

Is it a car you want? Color, year, options, etc.

Do a carfax or autocheck.

Make your financial arrangements, ie begging wife etc.

Drive the car and look it over yourself, does it suit you? Does it "feel" right? Take a buddy along to hold your checkbook and drag you away from trouble.

All cars have some issues, what I look at is would I be happy to drive the car as is? If yes, your fine, if not, then the PO (previous owner) likely has a different view of maintaining a car and that may show up in many more areas than the known issues. With AC I always ask myself why its not fixed, a recharge is cheap, potential other problems with the AC can be a money pit.

130k makes a difference in resale price, around 150k to 170k it is a very serious hit on resale price.

Are you happy with the condition of the body and paint? Its not the size of the dent, its does it matter you. Repairs to body and paint done to near factory standards are very expensive.

Check the DOT manufacturing date code on the tires, old rubber doesn't fly on a 928, 4 years is my max.

[Danglerb]

Its not a 928 thing, it applies to all tires, just impacts high performance tires the most as the tires become less elastic and the rubber hardens. More than 3 years and most driving events don't allow them. I don't want tires on my 928 that I have any question about being safe over 125 mph. My Mustang never goes over about 80 mph, so 6 years is ok for my use.

Lots of 928's have low mileage nice looking tires that are way too old. Between 4 and 6 years its a combination of a judgment call and the specific condition relative to the type of driving.

Like the PPI, its important to bring all the facts relative to the cars value to both your and owners attention. Its a practical, safety, and bargaining issue. Same for a timing belt replaced 14k miles ago in 1999, its going to be replaced if I buy the car.

[m21sniper]

So long as it passes the PPI, go for it.

[mtelliott]

What about the issues I pointed out (stalling, warning lights). Should I be concerned.

I haven't run a Carfax on that but will pursue once I decide I want to purchase. PPI is an absolute. Have a mechanic that trained in Germany and says he knows 928. He's over 60, German, and worked for Porsche. I'm going to have to trust that when he says he knows 928's, he knows 928's.

Michael

[Danglerb]

I'd be concerned because the owner knows about them and hasn't fixed them, but how concerned is what the PPI is all about. Small problems and big problems often look the same on a 928, thats why you need someone with a LOT of 928 experience. Even after the PPI you still may have no idea exactly what is wrong or what will fix it either, but you should have an idea of what the next step will cost.

Without making any judgment, these are my first two questions to a mechanic;
Do you work on 928's?
Do you have the workshop manuals for my model year?

The best mechanics with the most experience still use the manuals on a 1/3 or more of the jobs. Imagine what its like for a generic mechanic without them. Costly is what its like.

Next question is what special tools for the 928 do you have, such as a Bosch Hammer or Sharktuner for running diagnostics?

My guess is your guy, once you buy the manuals etc. should work out fine for fixing the car, but for the PPI you want a LOT of recent 928 contact.

I would break the PPI into three parts;

All the easy stuff you can do yourself with a checklist, verifying all the switches and lights etc. work, checking fluids.

928 expert, general look over, drive and get a feel for it, and snoop any specific things they know about.

Mechanic putting it on a lift checking for leaks, brake wear, torn boots etc, and checking compression.

[rhjames]

You've only touched on the very basics.....

PPI isn't as necessary as some say, if you know what to look for. If not, PPI is a must.

engine TB/h2o pump records would be a plus, but if not you're looking at $600 plus labor. No records---do the pump and belt asap.

leak down test, thorough inspection of the rest of the car etc....

HVAC is a big $$$ item---don't fool yourself. Change-out on the evaporator is 10 hours by the book---multiply that by your local labor rate and you'll see where this goes.....my PO had a receipt for HVAC recharge, but the system leaked down and guess what??? evaporator core leaked like a cow pissin' on a flat rock.

Stick car or slushbox?? clutch hydraulics are another $600 plus the clutch itself, plus labor. auto's are, well, more.

other systems are just run of the mill, but paint and body work are high due to the nature of the galvenized steel and aluminum body. front spoiler is $350-400 depending upon where you buy. rear S spoilers are less.

electrical gremlins (928s are notorious for them) can be very, very expensive----and sometimes very simple to fix.

Short of all this advice, read as much as you can about these gems, and read again......and read again. your education before you buy is paramount.



hope this helps-------

[Danglerb]

Nothing gives you an education like buying a 928 without a PPI, but I agree with RH that you can do most of the inspecting yourself once you know what to look for.

[low miler]

I know this is the least of your concerns, but the shrinkage would most likely be leather and not vinyl. Are you talking dash, or rear quarter windows? FYI: If the rear quarter window material is vinyl, so is the top part of the doors around the speakers and visa versa w/leather. And leather is the one that actually pulls away and shrinks. The vinyl one's always look great, with the exception your $50K original plus car is loaded up with vinyl.

NEWS FLASH: Porsche service centers nationwide received a memo about a month or so ago with regards to the timing belt/water pump service. As the original rule of thumb was 45K or 5 years, whichever came first, has been upgraded to 45K or 10 years. Great news! Just something to keep in mind. However, a thorough checking of the timing belt condition, and then following purchase, a tightening of the belt would be highly recommended.

Other than that, it is highly, highly recommended to always purchase the absolute newest model 928 that your wallet can afford. These cars are highly engineered works of art, but as anyone who's owned nearly every single year of this model will strongly vouch for, they get much, much better with time. My '79 (first 928), was nothing but problems, constantly! And it only had 40k on it! Over the years, I kept moving up the model year ladder, and definately noticed I spent much less time in the shop, and alot more time on the road with the more modern versions.

You need to weigh the two options of cheaper in the beginning vs. cheaper in the long run. Personally, now that most of the 928's I do buy are either GT's or GTS's, I rarely spend any time or money on maintenance or better yet, gremlins, that I always experienced with the older models.

Just my .02. However, I do wish you the very best in your search and ultimately, your choice.

Low Miler

[jcb928]

I would not touch that car unless it was $2500.

[Danglerb]

Originally posted by jcb928
I would not touch that car unless it was $2500.

Whats impressive about the 928 is that already owning three of them that you would be tempted by a forth at any price.

Potential buyers new to the 928 market aren't the same as jaded long time owners. Prices vary a HUGE amount, and we all know patience and money waiting to pounce are often rewarded with exceptional deals. Pounce prices are WAY lower than good or even HOT deal prices, low enough that nothing in a PPI would keep a car from selling later at a nice profit.

On the other end of the price range, many of us are prepared to spend almost silly amounts to get exactly what we want if its rare enough and finally turns up. When its rare and exactly what you want, value goes out the window, and its about what you can afford and/or explain to spouse etc.

[jcb928]

I just sold number 4 on Ebay - http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&sspagename=STRK%3AMEUS%3AIT&viewitem=&item=230109596288&rd=1,1

I ended up selling it off Ebay for $7500 but my point is why buy a 928 needing so much work when you could buy a "good" one $6500-$9000.

Lets look at the list of items and I will assume Michael will be using a repair shop (I do) for the repairs.

"Car runs well, when cold the idle will drop when coming to a stop sign and stall"
Tough Call, Could be any number of things but count on $200-$500 to fix.

"Warning lights on at instrumentation cluster –false warnings"
At least 2-3 hours (maybe more) so lets say $200-$300.

"AC doesn't blow cold (but did last year)"
If the compressor seized yesterday last year does not matter. $200-$1200

"130k+ miles on odometer"
Dime a dozen with those miles.

"Cruise control doesn't work"
I never use it so let just leave it alone.

"No receipt on last timing belt change (not sure if water pump was done at that time)"
$1200-$1500. Is that one of the "false" warnings?

Front Spoiler is $400-$600 installed.

He could easily spend $4000 getting the car up to par. Is this the ad?
http://denver.craigslist.org/car/340957160.html $3000 offer might do it.

Do you have the link to more pictures? It is hard to tell the condition of the car with the CL pics.

[mtelliott]

JB,

What's your background on these cars? You seem to be a new voice on the board (a good thing to have).

Yep, you found the car.

I typically do most of the work on cars. For $3000, the car is a no brainer. It might be at the price he's asking but I'm going back and forth on how much money this car might cost over the next couple of years. The car looks much better than the pictures. I'm just trying to remove the emotion from the equation and think about the hard numbers.

Michael

[m21sniper]

PPI or no, it will break, and it will take a LOT of labor to fix pretty much anything. However you save so much money on the front end on a 928 buy because of the cars ridiculously depressed value that it's still the #1 best route to go to get a true supercar at joe union's wages.

But the car will break, and when it does, it will take a lot of blood and treasure to fix.

A 928 is (dis)assembled like an onion...in layers.

[hacker-pschorr]

Originally posted by m21sniper
PPI or no, it will break, and it will take a LOT of labor to fix pretty much anything.

Define "A LOT" please.

Any car I can replace rod bearings in an afternoon on the floor in my garage with the engine still installed, is pretty simple in my book. What other types of cars have you worked on?

I've done head gaskets in a day on a 16V.

It's a supercar and by supercar standards 928's are very easy to work on & very easy to find parts for. Compared to a Buick I guess they are complicated.

[mtelliott]

I learned to work on engines by working on the diesels around the farm. I then progressed to the normal American cars. First German car was a VW rabbit. Fun little car, very simple. My 911 engine was a blast.

This time around, my kids prevent me from doing a lot of things I want to do (I'm not complaining - love my kids).

I've always like the 928 and it gives me a little more room than my 911 (golf clubs and car seats in the rear - they don't fit the 911).

Michael

[Danglerb]

The hardest part about buying a 928 is walking away from the moneypits that have tempting low prices.

A general rule of thumb is that the selling price is only discounted by about 40% or less of the actual repair cost. So a $6k car that needs $4k in work, might sell for $4.4k, but have a $8.4k total cost to get it up to a $6k car condition, but the repairs will have been done to your and not the previous owners satisfaction.

OTOH I am not entirely convinced that "holy grail" "need nothing" 928's exist. Maybe the best way to buy is to find the car you like, and fix it right and keep it til you croak?

What matters is what it takes to make you happy with the car.

What you are willing to tolerate being less than perfect or not working at all.

[jcb928]

"What's your background on these cars?"

I have just always followed Porsche 928/944's pricing and have been able to find some great deals on cars.

Are you willing to travel? Even just a quick flight to California will open up allot of cars to you. If you are willing to gamble Ebay has some great finds.

Someone on Rennlist (from California) bought this car on Ebay, http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=020&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=300101753814&rd=1,1

He ended up having the timing belt changed (No proof of change) and driving it back.

If you like the color combo and don't want to travel offer the guy $3000 and maybe go to up $3500 but plan on $4000 extra to bring it up to par. Even at $7500 for a good running 928 is a bargain!!!

[mtelliott]

Provided the PPI comes in without anything major, I'll be a new owner on Thursday.

Thank you very much for your advice. Some of it I took, some I didn't.

Plan is to drive it now, take it off line this winter and work on all the things that need to be addressed. I'm comfortable doing most, if not all of the work. It's just a matter of time available to work on them. Looking forward to have reliable cooling and heat for the >90 plus degree days and <20degree days respectively.

I'm about to embark on what an 85 is all about. Three years till I get the collectors plate here in CO. Always a bonus when you no longer have to pass emmisions. Not nearly as bad a CA, but can be a hassle.

Michael

[Danglerb]

As long as the car stays "remotely" stock, they easily pass emissions even here in Calif. Its sneaking the headers, engine swaps, high flow cats, turbos, superchargers, and Euro cars past the inspectors thats hard.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out, with pictures! I took about 50 shots during my PPI, under the car while its on the lift, and under the hood while the intake tubes and air box were off.