blown head gasket question

maclif · 07-16-2002, 08:04 PM

OK...

My friend was taking their 74 2.0 914 cross country and blew out their head gasket. Apparently, the car shed all it's oil in a very quick manner.

It's now been towed back, but I have a couple questions.

The engine has had a fairly recent rebuild (all the pistons have 100+ psi of pressure tested recently). Outside the Weber carbs, the engine is bone stock.

1. Is changing the head gasket (along with valve gaskets and tuning valves) a very difficult job, what is the DIY potential?
2. Does it require the engine being pulled?
3. Roughly how much would you expect parts to be on that, or if you took it somewhere, how much would something like that run?
4. Is there anything else to watch for?

Thanks.

WOODPIE · 07-16-2002, 08:22 PM

Hello maclif

Are you sure a head gasket was blown? Or was that maybe a diagnosis from someone unfamiliar with 914's? I'd take a WAG and say there is a blown or leaking valve cover gasket in that engine; that would allow a lot of oil to leak out. A faulty head gasket would "shed" exhaust gases more than anything else. Valve cover gaskets are easy to replace. There are good tips on this board about how to do this job correctly.

Ed

maclif · 07-16-2002, 08:30 PM

Yeah - I haven't seen the car post-gasket blowing and I don't think the person diagnosing the problem is overly familiar with the 914 engine. When they said head gasket, I was a little suspect, but wanted to ask regardless. (I've researched the car for quite sometime, but only have had the car in hand to look at for a couple weeks.)

So, if the gasket blew out, that fundamentally (other than cleaning the engine bay) wouldn't be much different than normally changing the oil, gaskets and adjusting the valves, would it?

WOODPIE · 07-16-2002, 09:10 PM

Yes, if it is just a valve cover gasket that blew out, (or fell in, they are as likely to do that) and the engine wasn't damaged by running without oil, just get some degreaser and rags, clean up the mess, and install new gaskets. Try to discover what happened, exactly, when you pull the valve cover off. The wire bale that snaps over the valve cover can loose its tension, and not apply enough compression to the cover. You can rebend it so it's tighter.

While your in there all covered with oil, it would be a good time to at least check the valve clearances, yes.

Ed

jamcleod · jamcleod's Garage

if it is in fact the cylinder head gasket:

1: no, it is a do-able DIY project
2: yes but i'm sure there are alot of opinions on this one but given the engine compartment is so cramped and getting to head from under car, save the pain and drop the engine, the parts are just too inconvenient to get to. i estimate the first engine drop will take you 6 hrs, then less time with experience.
3: cylinder head gasket is only $0.99! misc gaskets $10-52, complete gasket set for 2L is, i think, $40 from PP, not including new intake manifold hoses. engine gasket set includes cyl head gaskets and intake runner to cyl head phenolic block gaskets. re and re engine by shop ??? $350 (3hrs out 3hrs in by the book)
4: yes, take pics and make drawings to remember how everything is hooked up. renew old pieces "while you're in there" (vacuum hoses and fuel line hoses, head temp sensor)

Jake Raby · 07-18-2002, 06:31 AM

Did this leak result in loss of oil or loss of compression??
Blown head gaskets occur often, VW created a buletin that insisted on gaskets being removed during head services and rebuilds....

we NEVER use the head gaskets, just lapping procedures and good assembly..

maclif · 07-18-2002, 07:49 AM

It created a major loss of oil. The car seemed to loose a little power, but started creating a major oil slick behind it. The car was pulled over before all the oil was drained out of it. The engine temp didn't have time to raise, either.

Zeke · 07-18-2002, 11:06 AM

Jake and others know a heck of a lot more than I do, but I don't think a blown head gasket would result in any loss of oil, much less a whole lot as you describe. A blown head gasket, or loose studs or nuts makes a distinct popping noise under acceleration. There are some cars on the road driving around with the popping noise for weeks at a time and not loosing oil. (This doesn't do the engine much good).

The valve cover is a place your oil may have come out of. Many people glue the valve cover gasket to the cover with Gaskacinch and then place on head. PITA to clean off for a new gasket, though, but they don't slip off the rim of the head.

Another thing to check for is a split open push rod tube. If the seam was on the bottom side, all of the oil returning to the case sump will just run out on the ground.

A couple of people have posted recently that they lost a galley plug. This will really pump out the oil in a hurry. Some of the galley plugs (actually most) are hard to find, much less get to.

What I would do: If it isn't the valve cover, I would clean up the mess as best I could, fill the engine with oil, crank it over a bit and listen for any strange noises while watching for oil. Then start it up to trace the oil. This is something you can't do very easy with the engine out of the car. When you find the leak, you know what to fix and that will tell you if the engine needs to come out or not.

Lastly, I agree that it's not too big a job to pull the motor, but why pull it if you don't have to and you don't know what you are going to be fixing? Just my nickel's worth.

todd914 · 07-18-2002, 04:26 PM

I was not aware that the 914 even had a head gasket. There are spacer rings to get the deck height correct but as far as a gasket.... In fact, most engines utilizing the spacer rings on the head side actually will leak over time. I have remedied the problem in my own experience by placing the spacer rings on the block/cylinder side. This forms a metal to metal seal at the head and is less prone to leaking. I think someone is blowing exhaust up his ass...IMHO

Zeke · 07-18-2002, 07:33 PM

Whose ass are you refering to?

The original engine had a paper gasket at the cylinder base and a metal gasket between cyl and head.

Jake Raby · 07-18-2002, 07:38 PM

There was no paper gasket under the cylinder, it was a .007 thick aluminum shim/gasket and the head had either a .027 or .030 shim between the cast iron cylinder and the aluminum head. This was composed of three thin pieces of aluminum press formed together and made into a gasket...

The small pieces of aluminum seprate and blow, every engine I tear down that is factory has them and atleast one is blown or blowing. The last time I used one was around 1992, now we just lap and fit the cylinders. I machine a .060 step in most of my heads to promote a carbon seal and engines with 10+:1 CR won't weep a drop..........That gasket was the worst thing the factory did to a TIV, with the exception of hydro lifters..

todd914 · 07-18-2002, 07:47 PM

I was referring to Maclif's diagnosis. I have never seen a paper head sealing gasket on a 914 motor. I think those are next to the water pump.

Zeke · 07-18-2002, 08:13 PM

OK,OK, I did not say *paper head gasket* Read it again.

Jake, I won't argue with you, you have way too much experience. In my defense, I first refer to Tom Wilson's book on rebuilding VW engines. On page 132 (assuming all editions have the same page numbers for each article) he states, "Also install the sealing ring and any shims at the base of the cylinder." The first sentence in the next paragraph starts, "A coat of Permetex 3H will hold the gasket and shims............"

Now he doesn't exactly say what the sealing ring or gasket, which is apparently the same thing, is made of. But when I put one of these TypeIVs together in 1979, I seem to remember the gasket kit with some paper cylinder base gaskets. Yes, that was a long time ago and a bunch of cars since.

Anyway, I was half right. (About the head gasket being metal).

Jake Raby · 07-18-2002, 08:19 PM

I remember long ago I had a few dealer 1.7 gasket sets and they had a paper gasket for the cylinders, but I never used them, not even on a TI engine......just a good sealant works fine..Permatex hylomar is my goo for cylinders, it rocks..

Zeke · 07-18-2002, 08:27 PM

That's exactly the motor I had in my '72 914. You have vindicated me. Thanks. And I wasn't advocating what Tom Wilson said. I have your video. I do it your way now.

maclif · 07-18-2002, 08:29 PM

Not to have a discussion about one's asses or smoke, but I was just given a very small bit of information to work off of second or third hand from someone who hasn't been working on 914s since polyester was all the rage.
I myself am new to these vehicles, and came to this discussion board for helpful insight. I am excited to be involved with this vehicle and the resources provided at this site and discussion board have provided me with many knowledgeable hours of information gathering.

Thank you for the help on this problem I have encountered.

Zeke · 07-18-2002, 08:31 PM

So where are you on the project now? Have you found anything?

Jake Raby · 07-18-2002, 08:33 PM

Hey, no problem..

This is the sole reason I visit these boards..I build atleast 50 TIV complete dyno tested engines per year and like to stop myths that are started by those who have built one engine, and read 50 books, most of which were written by guys that never even built an engine themselves...

maclif · 07-18-2002, 08:36 PM

With work this week, I'm pretty much chained to the computer until this weekend at the earliest.

Zeke · 07-18-2002, 08:43 PM

Well keep us up to date by updating this thread. Everyone learns from one anothers' experience. And with Jake here now (for how long, you don't know 'cause he runs in cycles) you couldn't get better advice about the 914 engine.