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-   -   CIS starting issues (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=1114060)

T77911S 04-13-2022 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrm930 (Post 11659218)
There is no clog. Return lines were full of fuel - that was fun! The return lines are clear. I also let the pumps run with the return line disconnected - free flow - no reduction. Also measured the pressure of the return line - a bit less then the input side. Maybe 1/2 a bar - but still reading off the scale - past 7bar.

All fuel lines are new. I ran 1/2" OD aluminum lines thru the tunnel (I will never attempt that again - took me 5 nights of incredible patience). All fuel lines are stainless steel braided alcohol resistant lines with 8AN fittings.

I can do the flow tests - I already know it will be more than stock. The amount of fuel coming out of the main input is quite a bit.

Do you think I will have to install a valve, pre-FH, to reduce the pressure?

Dumb question - what controls the reduce fuel pressure at the WUR? The WUR restricting flow or FH internals.

thanks all

there is a very small port inside the FD that reduces fuel to the WUR. cant remember what is called.

T77911S 04-13-2022 09:57 AM

that is an early 2.7 FD with NO pull up valve to raise residual pressure.
notice also the FD does NOT have adjustments for each fuel chamber

Alan L 04-13-2022 11:56 AM

"notice also the FD does NOT have adjustments for each fuel chamber"

There is an adjuster port showing on the far right injector line?
Alan

mrm930 04-13-2022 06:38 PM

The latest, after conversations with Chris Carroll at turbokraft and Brian at rarlyl8, I am sending the FH and the WUR to Brian to rebuild. At least this will eliminate them as an issue.

Also sending the intercooler to Chris to update it to a long neck. This will eliminate the large valve body and misc. vacumn lines. This will help in throttle response, overall performance and eliminate or reduce the turbo lag.

Back to post when parts come back

mrm930 09-04-2022 11:41 AM

3 months later: the fuel head and WUR have been re-built and reinstalled. The WUR has been modified and is now adjustable. First thing on the list is the cold pressure adjustment, as noted in Brian Leask’s instructions.

3months later and back to where I was…….first WUR pressure test and the pressure is above 7.0. My gauge only goes to 7.0, if I would continue the markings, I would estimate the pressure closer to 8 bar.

Now what? Too high to even try to adjust the WUR. My first thought is to borrow or purchase another pressure tester to compare and/or purchase and install a fluid pressure gauge and adjust the pressure before the fuel head.

Suggestions?

patina 09-05-2022 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrm930 (Post 11789038)
3 months later: the fuel head and WUR have been re-built and reinstalled. The WUR has been modified and is now adjustable. First thing on the list is the cold pressure adjustment, as noted in Brian Leask’s instructions.

3months later and back to where I was…….first WUR pressure test and the pressure is above 7.0. My gauge only goes to 7.0, if I would continue the markings, I would estimate the pressure closer to 8 bar.

Now what? Too high to even try to adjust the WUR. My first thought is to borrow or purchase another pressure tester to compare and/or purchase and install a fluid pressure gauge and adjust the pressure before the fuel head.

Suggestions?

Get a new gauge! Did Brian calibrate the WUR? He should be able to tell you exactly where he set the cold pressure. He should have set it within the ballpark of where you should be in regards to your modifications. Should be somewhere near 2.5bar.

mrm930 09-05-2022 05:10 PM

Well, it just keeps getting better. All of a sudden, my new front pump is make a pulsing/bubbling noise and gets warm quickly. Apparently I got a bad pump. Order another one tomorrow. What else….. this has been an ordeal! Shouldn’t be this difficult. Back to you guys when I get the pump switched out. I might just switch them both. The older rear pump, may have been stressed due to the bad front pump.

My wife is going to love me for this

heliolps2 09-06-2022 07:31 PM

I still think the 044 pump at the rear is the issue. Replace it with a stock pump at the rear and put the 044 pump up front. I chased my tail for months with similar issues. You want the high-pressure pump up front and the low-pressure high flow in the rear. Imagine a water hose with a nozzle, you get more pressure but not more water, and the hose without a nozzle flows more water with less pressure. 044 pumps are made for EFI engines that require high pressures, I hope this helps.

Alan L 09-07-2022 02:19 AM

There is a proper test to do here. Pump differential pressure. That is what it is designed for. To tell
you if one pump is not performing. Before replacing stuff you need to test. The differential pressure from memory is 2.5-4 bar. The gauge goes in between the two pumps - at the intake for rear pump.
Can post pic if it helps.
Alan

mrm930 10-14-2022 07:23 AM

Well, 2 months later and the same damn results. Completely frustrating - about to throw my hands up on this whole CIS system!

Here is what I have completed:
Had the fuel head and WUR rebuilt. WUR is now adjustable. Checked all of the fuel lines for any kind of obstructions. The fuel lines were new when I installed them - SS braided with AN fittings. Emptied the fuel tank and checked main and return feed outlets for any kind of blocking. New fuel pumps (which have higher volume drawing less power). The fuel filter and accumulator were new 2 years ago.

Fired up the pumps and checked system and control pressures. I have a 7 bar gage. Results are off the gage - probably around 9.0-9.5 if you extend the graduation markings.

Checked pressures outside the norm:
All were the same result: before fuel filter, after accumulator, before fuel head, even the return line from the WUR!

WTH is going on. What am I missing here. The WUR isn't doing anything, and the worst issue is that it took nearly 2 months to get it back. I checked all the connection locations going to and from the fuel head. These are the same readings before I had the rebuilds and the new pumps.

Do I install an adjustable pressure gauge before the fuel head to bring down the initial pressure?

thanks all

mrm930 10-15-2022 10:19 AM

Okay, disconnected the return line from the fuel tank. Ran the pumps. Gas was free flowing from the return line. Pressure reading was 0.5 bar, probably because there were no restrictions. I assume the baffles in the tank raise the back pressure, increasing the pressure at the fuel dist.

I have hooked up an air hose to the return line. Ran it at 60 lbs, heard the air bubbles in the tank. Removed the air line and tried to blow into the line. Couldn’t get air to flow.

Is there a “flap” inside the tank at the return line that only allows return fuel flow at certain minimal pressures or should it always be free flow? If it is supposed to be free flow, is there a fix for this or should I get a new tank?

Thanks

T77911S 10-17-2022 06:25 AM

where and what line did you disconnect and where were you checking the pressure. out of the FD to the WUR?

not to side track you.
i bought 2 sets of gauges at the same time (actually they sent me 2)
one set would read very hi for system pressure the set read normal.
both sets read the same for control pressure.

just to be clear.
BOTH system and CP read the same out of the FD going to the WUR.

mrm930 10-18-2022 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T77911S (Post 11823537)
where and what line did you disconnect and where were you checking the pressure. out of the FD to the WUR?

not to side track you.
i bought 2 sets of gauges at the same time (actually they sent me 2)
one set would read very hi for system pressure the set read normal.
both sets read the same for control pressure.

just to be clear.
BOTH system and CP read the same out of the FD going to the WUR.

Yes, reading both from the standard pressure test set up

mrm930 10-18-2022 04:37 PM

Poured 2 gallons of denatured alcohol in the fuel tank and let it sit for 2 days. Drained it today. The alcohol had a yellowish tint, meaning that it did it’s job and dissolved some varnish residue. Then I took a metal “pipe cleaner” from my companies finish dept that they use to clean out spray equipment, and inserted it in the return line.

Pulled out Thick black tar residue. Kept flushing the line with carb cleaner until no residue was present. Should be completely clear now. Obvious it was partially closed. Open enough so that I would get bubbles in the tank, but from 40-60 lbs of compressed air.

I have a gallon of Por 15 tank cleaner coming. Using the whole amount, diluted with 4-5 gallons. Of hot water. Let it sit for 24 hours. Then flush the tank with hot water. The trick is getting all of the water back out. My tank is still in the car. Probably will use alcohol again to flush out the water. Then leave everything open until the alcohol evaporates.

Should be able to run pressure tests again this weekend.

What a freakin journey!!!!

T77911S 10-20-2022 11:33 AM

i was able to blow through mine.

mrm930 10-24-2022 07:36 AM

Well - progress. The restriction that reduced the return fuel line flow has been removed. Flushed the tank one more time. Rinsed it with hot water. Use a hair dryer to circulate air through the fuel level sender over nite. The next morning I turned the heat on and dried the tank completely. Worked very nicely.

Finally!!!!! Set cold and warm WUR pressures. Also checked the pressure under vacuum - all good.

Now I have to finish reassembly before I try starting this up.

fourblades 10-30-2022 05:31 PM

Glad to hear you figured it out! Good job keeping after it. It makes sense that your pressure would be high if your return line was blocked.

Good luck with the car.

John

mrm930 11-03-2022 02:11 PM

Okay….retested and the system pressure is low. Dialed in the WUR though. Hot, cold and under charge pressures are all adjusted and right on.

Maybe the fuel filter has some issues. So I ordered a new one and replaced.

Have had a bit of doubt on my test equipment gauge. Took it apart and reassembled. The indicator, Still sets above 0, almost at 1 bar. Off to Barbour freight to buy a temp gauge just to re-check.

FINALLY! All pressures are right on. Will order a nice new higher quality gauge for a permanent solution.

Assembling everything for start up.

Let you guys know how that ended up.

mrm930 11-04-2022 03:18 PM

Trying to start the motor. Didn’t fire at all. Thinking that it is excessively rich (smell of fuel). I have been adjusting the lean/rich mixture. Going lean in increments of an 1/8 of a turn at a time. Finally fired up. Immediately backfired and died. Exhaust was eye watering …..rich! Kept at it. After a dozen adjustments or more, it seams to begetting better.

Still dies after initial fire up. The best so far, is that it runs for 3-4 secs, then dies. It will restart immediately, but either does the same thing or backfires and dies.

Yes, I reinstall the plug on the mixture screw so that I do not have a vacumn leak.

I will keep going. Any ideas here? Should I test the accumulator?, or am I heading in the correct way?

Thanks all

Alan L 11-04-2022 03:54 PM

So all the CIS pressures are now in spec.
Assuming that, the idle mix may be wrong. One way to adjust that from ground zero - ie without a running motor, is to turn key on, pull plug at back of airplate. pumps should be running. If the idle mix is correct, the pumps will run, but not the injectors. If you are not confident what the injector squeal sounds like, you could pull one (#4 is easy), and watch. Now turn the idle mix screw clockwise til they squeal (or you see fuel from #4). At this point turn key off immediately (or plug back on airplate switch - to stop the pumps. Now back the screw off about 1/8 turn. You will be within spitting distance of where it finally needs to be. That will eliminate one possibility.
What plug on what mixture screw?
Alan


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