|
Aluminum isn’t meant to bend back n fourth. See if you can it can aneal it before trying to bend again.
|
I see cracks already.
|
Definitely not ideal to bend aluminum…even once. Hard to tell from the photos but I was happy to find that it took very little bending to get the old tanks off and the bend spread out over a large area. I does look like cracks in the photo but that’s some kind surface finish from when the aluminum was formed. Was there before I removed the stock tanks.
Good idea to anneal the aluminum. That could help! |
The scans look great after processing them with Fusion. What type of scanner are you using to achieve those results?
|
I use and Einstar scanner. I’ve had others and this one is so much better. Pretty amazing that this tech is cheap enough to have at home now.
|
After mostly finishing the design of the BMW intercooler end tanks, I’m thinking about going another direction. It would have worked and worked well but I just don’t love how it’s sitting on top of the engine. It doesn’t feel well integrated.
We’ll see if I actually finish this new direction but I’m thinking I’ll make a new intake manifold with the intercooler integrated into it. Certainly more complex to engineer this, but it’s also a fun project. It’s possible I start with the BMW intercooler and then go this route later. The design is far from complete but this is how it’s shaping up. (It’s rendered in carbon but it will be 3D printed nylon and/or aluminum) http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1739329263.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1739329263.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1739329263.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1739329263.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1739329263.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1739329263.jpg |
Awesome
|
Wow. So glad I stepped in here. Got caught up on this most creative turbo build. You’re really good at juggling multiple balls at one time. Glad you post all the action here on the Pelican.
|
Appreciate the feedback! I’ve been working on the aesthetics of the intake. If I’m going to do all this work it better look good! After a lot of different directions I’ve ended up with a shape that I like. I think I’m good to start the engineering work on it.
This is again rendered in carbon fiber but the real part will be 3D printed nylon. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1739901351.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1739901351.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1739901351.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1739901351.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1739901563.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1739901563.jpg |
That is coming along really nicely. I look forward to seeing your future iterations on the intake.
Out of curiosity, are you going to be able to print that in nylon in one piece, yourself? Or will you need to send that out to an outside service to have it printed? If you are printing it by yourself, what type of FDM machine will you be using thathas the build volume to handle that? |
I’d like to print it myself so I designed it around my small 256mmx256mm print bed of my Bambu X1C. Each runner will be a print and the center section will be two prints. The plan is to bond it all together. Not ideal but there will be very large bonding surfaces so I think it will be quite strong. I may add some fasteners too.
|
That should work out well.
I have been checking out this new Creality Ender-5 Max for some prototyping, which has just hit the market. It has a 400 x 400 x 400 build area and it looks like it can handle the technical filaments like PA6-FG, PA6-CF, and PAHT-CF with it's high(er) temp print head and heated chamber. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1739934147.jpg What filament do you expect to use for the final product? |
That looks like a really nice printer. I could make the manifold in three pieces with that build volume. There seems to be a surge of progress in 3D printing right now.
I’ll use Bambu PAHT-CF. I have some PPA-CF which would be better but would also cost a fortune. |
That PAHT-CF prints nicely, and is amenable to post-processing.
You can sand it and polish it with Tripoli rouge (and others) to give it a really nice surface finish. |
Really good to know moparrob! I have not printed with it very much. I'm mostly worried about keeping warping in control as there are big parts. I also not sure what glue to use and what filler to use when I assemble the intake.
I've been busy getting the car ready for paint. Details on that HERE. I have also been working on engineering the intake manifold. - The "throttle body adapter" is hopefully done. This is a really complex part of model in CAD and I also wanted to make it as strong as possible given how critical it is. At 14 psi of boost it will see about 700 lbs of force. - The water to air intercooler will be sourced from Bell. They say it good for up to 500hp so should be perfect for my 350hp target. - The intake is a work in progress. I sill have a lot of work to do. I'm having to design it around the limited build area of my 3D printer but so far that has not required any major compromises. The intake flange / fuel injector geometry is done and the intake trumpets are done. The trumpets are all the same length to within 2mm and they are about 60mm longer than stock. I also tapered them from 41mm to 50mm. I'm hoping that the length and taper helps torque at lower rpms when the turbo is not active. I have done no math on this as it seems like testing is the only good way to dial it in. Going with the educated guess. Runner resonance is a nice bonus but not a huge deal on a turbo car. I have a lot more work to do on the intake and then I'll start the test prints. I have two week to get the car ready for paint so that takes priority. Going Bali Blue! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1740601118.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1740601118.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1740601118.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1740601118.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1740601118.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1740601118.jpg |
Wow that is coming along nicely. I am definitely envious of your CAD skills and appreciate the work that goes in to the many iterations.
I have never had to glue 2 parts together, but I bet the techs at the filament manufacturer would have some valuable input. Also, the folks at 3M never seem to be short of solutions. Keep up the great work. |
Made some progress in CAD and I have what I hope is the final plumbing arrangement.
Now that the engine is out of the car I scanned the engine bay and dropped that into CAD. That gave me a much better idea of the space I have to work with and I'm able to fit the charge pipe inside the engine bay. It's much shorter and nicer this way. That said, this whole setup is going to make changing spark plugs a full day job... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1740770978.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1740770978.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1740770978.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1740770978.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1740770978.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1740770978.jpg |
The engine is finally rebuilt. It took a little longer than expected, but went really well.
Now I can shift to the final development of the turbo system. I started mocking things up on the engine and found a couple issues. First when you twin plug the heads, the lower plug on the 1-3 side of the engine is very close to the exhaust flange. I can still mount the coil, but it is way too close to the exhaust. I don’t think I can keep it cool enough even if I add insulation. My plan is to create a 12 inch extension wire and mount the coil on top of the engine. I have not really seen people do this before with coil on plug coil. I don’t see why it wouldn’t work though. Also, when I added the thicker cylinder base gaskets (1.2mm) this made the exhaust flanges misalign. The crossover pipe flange is now about 2 mm back from the heat exchanger flange. I think I’ll just double up the gaskets and that should work fine. Now I’m focused on building the CAD, prototypes, and test fitting. It’s a little tempting to put the turbo where Porsche put it, but I still like the side mount and I like that it puts the weight further forward. I’m sticking with it! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750270384.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750270384.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750270384.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750270384.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750270384.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750270384.jpg |
Wow, that is coming along rather nicely. Job well done.
Are you going to have the prototype exhaust pieces powder metal printed, or laser sintered, or...? |
Yup, they will be laser sintered stainless. Pretty incredible how affordable that has become. The two parts that connect the exhaust to the turbine inlet are about $200 each. If these were mass produced Porsche parts they would be double that…at least.
|
That's crazy nice. You could probs offset your cost by selling the 3d plans for that...
|
Thank you! It’s mostly CAD and plastic mock ups at this point. Well so how it all actually comes together!
|
I posted this in my engine rebuild thread but since it’s directly related to the turbo system I’ll post here too.
To lower the compression ratio I took some material off the top of the pistons. I ended up pulling exactly 10 grams off each piston. I would have liked to take a little more off but it felt like I should quit while I was ahead. To get those 10 grams I pulled about 6mm off the top of the piston. With Aluminum’s density of 2.75 grams per cc, the 10 grams I pulled off is equivalent to 3.6cc of aluminum…removed from the combustion chamber. This lowers the compression ratio from 9.5:1 to 9:1. I think 9:1 will be passible for my modest power goals, but it a still a little high. I ended up going with 1.3 mm base shims on the cylinders. My stock base shim is 0.5 mm because the case halves have been machined. The additional 0.8 mm increases the combustion chamber volume by 5.7 cc. Adding it up, the machine pistons plus the base gaskets resulted in a compression ratio of 8.4:1. Perfect. I have not seen anyone else cut these pistons down for this purpose but there’s a lot of aluminum up top. I think they will be fine. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750944217.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750944217.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750944217.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750944217.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750944217.jpg |
Your a brave man or maybe just smarter than the rest of us!
|
Glad to see someone else experimenting with turning their pistons down. I've been curious about doing that myself too when I can eventually get into my engine.
|
Just discovered this thread after following along your rust repair one Coultl, which I enjoyed a lot.
Very cool work on the 3D scanning, design and printing! And it will be immensely satisfying to eventually drive a car that you rebuilt from front to back yourself. One thing I would caution on is using FDM for structural parts that need isotropic strength, so as a pressurised intake manifold. Even with a 3mm wall thickness and a strong material like PPA-CF, the layer adhesion is most likely going to be an issue. The added CF works well for helping appearance, stiffness, and preventing warping, but it also weakens layer adhesion since it also acts kind of as a contaminant where the plastics wants to stick to itself. The newer core filaments such as from Siraya Tech partially address this issue, but strength in Z is still much lower than along the layer. I wonder how much SLS printing this big piece in China would cost, either in nylon or ideally some form of metal? Alternatively, you can also try to find somebody with a printer with a heated chamber and an annealing oven, both of those can also help the parts become more isotropic. I would definitely build a testing rig you can pressurise to play around with it, before it goes on a very expensive Porsche motor. Please keep us posted on how this testing goes, hopefully I am completely wrong and it all works out sweetly in the end. ;) Cheers, Lukas |
I hear you on the strength issues. Been thinking about it.
I’ve actually been using the core PPA from Siraya. It prints great. Later adhesion is better but still far from the material’s actual strength. The one thing that I really don’t like is that a failure of the intake manifold could create a large vacuum leak which would be a lot like a stuck throttle. A small crack in the intake plumbing would be just be an inconvenience but a large crack after the throttle body is a safety issue. It may be that I prototype with 3D printed PPA and then end up having it 3D printed in aluminum once it’s all sorted out. We’ll see. I’ve been comparing my parts to the BMW M3 intercooler end tanks I have. They are pretty stout glass filled nylon but people run well over 20 psi boost on those cars. Pretty amazing what the plastic can handle. I’ll have roughly twice the wall thickness. |
Good to see that you are also into the details of 3D printing, it really is a cool technology for us tinkerers and making advances all the time. :cool:
The big difference with those BMW end tanks is that they are most likely injection moulded, and therefore as strong in every direction. I don't recall Siraya Core off the top of my head but most PPA-CF's have about 1/3 of the strength in Z between the layers, as in X and Y. I'd probably trust it myself with a NA engine if printed in a heated chamber, but boosted is a whole other ballgame... Have you checked with your CAD drawing how much an alu print would cost? Probably not cheap even in China but we all know how expensive it can get to rebuild an air cooled engine... :eek: |
Yes, the BMW end tanks are far stronger for a given material thickness. They are also more heat resistant than the PPA. The PPA should handle heat better than PA-6 but 3D print filaments have modifiers and such. I tested and it gets soft first.
I print in a heater chamber so it will be as strong as PPA can be…but for a given material thickness, it’s still far from an injection molded part. That’s said, my design is absurdly overbuilt. All the math will likely show a factor of safely of 5, maybe closer to 10…but real world is a different ball game… I’d need to redesign it for aluminim and it would kinda ruin the look….but it would be doable. I think total cost would be about $1k. |
Quote:
|
I smoothed out the sharp edges somewhat afterwards. Valve pockets typically have hard edges and that’s a sign that it might not be an issue. We’ll see!
|
The design of the turbo mount took a lot of work. The solution wasn’t obvious but I’m really happy with where it landed.
The mount bolts to the turbo with two M14 bolts threaded into the turbos coolant connections. These are big threaded connections to the core of the turbo. The mount connects to the engine via four of the valve covers bolts. These are M8 and thread into chunky aluminum on the cam house. I don’t love that the load is going through the cam cover gasket, but I don’t see any other option. The thing that’s got me excited is that the oil drain is now integrated into the mount. The oil drain is sealed to the mount via an ID/OD o-ring seal. The mount is then sealed to the cam cover via the same rubber compression ring used for the oil pump / case connection. I only need to make a corresponding hole in the rocker cover. It’s all very compact. That said, there’s no drop and the oil has to travel across to the valve cover. Not ideal but these ball bearing turbos use so little oil (1mm restrictor) that I think it will be fine. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753318988.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753318988.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753318988.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753318988.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753318988.jpg |
Photos of the prototype. Feel sturdy even in plastic but it will be 3D printed aluminum soon. Installation is cramped but not too bad. Adjusting valves will be quite the job however…I’m guessing that’s why Porsche didn’t put the turbo in this location.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753319062.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753319062.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753319062.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753319062.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753319062.jpg |
Wow, you have made alot of progress and that is looking good. I can't wait to see the results with the parts printed in aluminum.
|
Wow, this is an impressive build, very fun to watch and nice to see some data driven decisions being made. What scanner are you using for this project?
Thanks David |
Additional photos below with some key plumbing in place. Seeing it in person usually results in some issues and opportunities to show up…but nothing yet. Still feels good.
The very tight fit for the compressor exit hose is unfortunate but this was clear and CAD and moving the turbo forward isn't an option (the wheel is in the way) and moving the turbo aft would require major frame cutting. Pulling the coil off will be annoying but it works. I'd say it's still 50% easier than working on a modern car... Insulating the turbine housing is something I’m thinking about. It’s going to be quite close to the chassis and engine tin. I’d rather not use a turbo blanket. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753413278.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753413278.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753413278.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753413278.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753413278.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753413278.jpg |
The metal 3D prints arrived today. $200 delivered + $60 tariff… Not bad.
The mount is aluminum and the oil drain is stainless. The quality is VERY good and there’s no detectable warping. The turbo feels so solidly mounted. Love it. Next up are the stainless exhaust 3D prints. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754688380.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754688380.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754688380.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754688380.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754688380.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754688380.jpg |
That is fricken genius!
|
Those parts are beautiful. Which vendor did you choose for the powder printing?
|
I use CraftCloud and the vendor is use is 3DNext. A little higher cost but seems like the quality is higher.
|
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:09 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2025 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website