DIY EFI vs. Motronic/EFI technologies

[dsiegel360]

I've been considering an EFI conversion and have been reading the recent EFI posts. After speaking with one of the big-time Porsche guru's about it, he had only bad things to say about the DIY systems and will only use the Italian system from "EFI technologies." The darn system costs 7900 bucks, installation not included.

His complaint about the other systems is their lack of ability to stay properly tuned. I guess he is saying that the map settings don't last. He didn't go into great detail but did say that once an "EFI technologies" system is properly mapped, the car will not ever have EFI related problems.

I've decided that if I do an EFI conversion, I'm not going to do it myself. I'd love suggestions .....and I'd love to hear people respond to accusations regarding DIY EFI kits versus Motronic and EFI technologies.

[turbobrat930]

Doug, First off, I am NOT an expert, but I do have an opinion. When considering what brand of EFI system to go with...there are several factors: cost, features, intended use (IE: track car or street), emissions laws, etc... but IMHO the most of the important thing that you need to consider is that you have a mechanic...or yourself, friend, etc...but have someone who TOTALLY understands the EFI system that you purchase. The system is only going to be as good as the person who tunes and creates the maps. If lets say, you purchase a Motec system, and no one around your area has delt or tuned a Motec system, then you will have a very hard time with it. If you had a Honda and were running MS or some other DIY sytem, then you could get on the forums and atleast get a pretty good map or starting point....but since no two engines are exactly alike...even the best map still is just a good starting point. As far as EFI technologies... I am not familiar with them, but maybe someone can chime in with thier opinion and help you out...

[BoxxerSix]

Originally Posted by turbobrat930

.but have someone who TOTALLY understands the EFI system that you purchase. ...

Well put

Personally I love the MS stuff. Cheap, reliable, easy to work with and modify/add onto. Works VERY well. I'm surprised more don't use it, although I think the whole "underground" lable it seems to ahve is a deterrent to most. The new MS2 PCB3 stuff is really good.

[dsiegel360]

What is the difference between systems that cost 1000 and those that cost 8000?

[TimT]

What is the difference between systems that cost 1000 and those that cost 8000?

7000 bucks.... and of course the high buck system has things you will never need.. so why pay for them?

Are you really buying into your

big-time Porsche guru's

That any DIY wont hold a tune? what a bunch of crap... Of course he want to sell a hyper expensive system that only he can tune.....big-time Porsche guru's

Yes we sell and install another brand of engine management but from what I have read the BTPG (big-time Porsche guru's) isnt doing you any favors

[juan ruiz]

I suggest you find a new Porsche GuRu, that will be the first thing,

Anyone that told you all that information is misleading you, we have MANY EFI systems in the market today and some are good some are better but at the end of the day is your Tuner that will make the system operation properly.

If you want to go with a $7500 system and is a street car or even a part time race car I can assure you that you will use about 70% of the system capabilities, all the others features will be just there with no use.

Even Bellos with his 1200 rwhp is using a Haltech a system that for many is a pre historic system, we are running a DTA and we have had zero issues in 4+years not one single incident.

If you wish to run the standard Motronics you can contact protomotive and have a custom chip burn for your application, you will be able to run good until around 500hp after that you will start with the limitations of the system, the fuel and ignition timing curve is not wide enough to run very high horsepower and therefore you will need to burn many more chips until you get the one that will support your horsepower.

With the EFI your options are open, with the Motronic you will be limited soon or later.

and by the way Italians are good at making Sunglasses and Womens shoes, not EFI Systems

Good luck with the project

[dsiegel360]

Thanks guys. Great detailed responses.

[WERK I]

There's a saying in the software industry; "Garbage in, Garbage out". Any tuner that tells you that one systems is better than any other because theirs holds its mapping is blowing smoke up your butt. Now, if they say that their software is more stable and doesn't crash the Operating System, that's another matter all together.
Just make sure you invest wisely in high quality sensors and wiring harnesses. Most of these systems are using TTL logic voltages which run at low voltages(+5,-5volts) and any stray inductive pick up from high tension ignition is going to throw a wrench into the software. Garbage in....Garbage out

[kleinbbc]

Have you tried to find Eddie Bellos.. I think he is some were in NY, he can set you up on a system..

[dsiegel360]

Just make sure you invest wisely in high quality sensors and wiring harnesses. Most of these systems are using TTL logic voltages which run at low voltages(+5,-5volts) and any stray inductive pick up from high tension ignition is going to throw a wrench into the software. Garbage in....Garbage out[/QUOTE]



Are you saying that one must keep their EFI wires away from ignition? I have an MSD ignition, it this kosher with EFI?
Thanks.

[dsiegel360]

Originally Posted by kleinbbc

Have you tried to find Eddie Bellos.. I think he is some were in NY, he can set you up on a system..

Like Eddie, I'm going to use Haltech. May be I will try to locate him. Thanks.

[Jeff Alton]

If you are going to use a Haltech, contact timt above or Bill. Tim offered me an unreal amount of free advice and guidance before I bought an efi system. I would have bought a Haltech, but the lcoal tuner actually recommended I go with a different system for my setup. Had I bought a haltech, I would have got it from Tim and Bill at Rudtners.....

Cheers

[WERK I]

Are you saying that one must keep their EFI wires away from ignition? I have an MSD ignition, it this kosher with EFI?
Thanks.[/QUOTE]

No, just make sure the EFI wiring is high quality, well sheathed/grounded. Also, make sure that whenever the efi wiring crosses a high tension lead, it does so at right angles. This minimizes any inductive crossover.

[dsiegel360]

Originally Posted by WERK-I

Are you saying that one must keep their EFI wires away from ignition? I have an MSD ignition, it this kosher with EFI?
Thanks.

No, just make sure the EFI wiring is high quality, well sheathed/grounded. Also, make sure that whenever the efi wiring crosses a high tension lead, it does so at right angles. This minimizes any inductive crossover.[/QUOTE]

Got it. Thanks.
Any brand of wire harness you prefer?

[AFM744]

Doug, this topic is precisely why my attentions have moved from RL to this forum as of late. I'm fed up with elitist, self assured, self proclaimed experts who think their way is the only way, and that less than five figures means you're "cheap".
First, find yourself a different Guru, one that isn't trying to talk his way into your bank account. Next, take a look at how many successful home-brewed Megasquirt, SDS and other inexpensive ECU applications are here. Nobody will argue that Motec and other boutique brands are the best, but I neither can afford that nor do I need to. If you want to send your car and your direct deposits to a tuner shop and not deal with the pain, then you will find a very, very short list of shops this community will underwrite. If you are a gearhead and a learner, then doing your own EFI means you can have it your way. But whether you do it yourself or send it out your car won't be *done* for a long time.

I took my WUR out three times over the weekend and performed extensive yet fruitless diagnosics on it. I personally can't wait to take my CIS stuff and set it all on fire.

[dsiegel360]

Thanks AFM. It certainly has been reassuring to see so many satisfied EFI converts using less expensive systems. We owe much to the folk who created and participate on this forum. Thanks guys!!!

[juan ruiz]

One tip, make sure you have a quality harness and make sure is a two section, next time you drop the engine you just un-plug it

[strokher racing]

If you are in NY you should contact Jimmy at The Shop. He does lots of EFI swaps on Porsches. His website is thechopct.com

The good looking Porsche on the front page is mine

[Porschekid962]

I have yet to see an EFI tech box on a streetcar, still havent seen Pectel, McLaren Electronics, Bosch MS, Magnetti Marrelli, or some of the other racecar bred boxes on a streetcar and there is a reason. They are expensive, require a lot of tuning, require more than a handful of sensor inputs and lots of dyno time and experience to setup correctly. Most of the upper echelon motorsport style ecu boxes have two wideband lambda inputs, crank position sensor, cam position sensors, exhaust temp, intake temp, manifold absolute pressure, oil temp, oil pressure, water temp, water pressure, knock sensors, throttle sensor at the pedal and throttle body(ies) mostly on fly by wire, plus other fun individual cylinder sensors mainly for tuning reasons. So hook that all up to in our case 6 injectors minimum, you could run staged injectors on a race motor so that would be 12, then you have your motor twin plugged so your running 12 coil on plug setups which means you need at least 6 coil drivers or you could split the signal to run all 12 or just get a brain that can handle it all. Then you have your cooling fan set to come on when the oil/coolant gets to a certain number, the ecu can self adjust itself based on af/r numbers, then you have your four wheel speed sensors wired in so you can do some traction control and launch control. Then you have an output to your dash and data logger if your dash doesnt log data on its own. Thats just the basic motor loom for a race style setup you can go crazier if you want.

For a street car I would want to run full sequential injection, you need a cam sensor, crank sensor, throttle sensor, thats pretty much the super bare bones but i would definately add a wideband 02 sensor, intake temp, oil temp, oil pressure, MAP sensor and possibly two knock sensors for logging and tuning purposes. Also depending on the type of ignition you choose to run, dizzy with cdi boxes, dual post coils, coil on plug what have you that your brain will support it.

Find someone local to you that has a good reputation for dyno tuning motors with a specific ecu and see what fits your bill. Have fun!