Guys: Euro fuel is RON and US fuel is RON+MON/2. So euro 98 oct equals about US 93 oct.

Those EGT findings from Thierry are interesting but logical as the heat moves/rises in the headers when retarding timing.

Which datalogger do you use Thierry? I have an LMA-3 in my bike and the EGT does not work on it either.

Why not consider running an EFI with timing control only? That is pobably in the 1000 dollar range. Then you will have timing correction for boost, cylinder head temp, manifold air temp, and engine speed. Plus, you get O2 sensor and data logging. All you have to do is zero out the fuel quantity map and the modifiers. When you are ready to bail out on Jurassic injection, you will be all set.

Thierry,

First, it is great to see something for the first time on the 69EZ's output that might give us a hint as to how it functions.

It is interesting to me that Porsche did not seem to bend the advance curve around TQ peak where we are more sensitive.

From talking w Steve Wong of 911CHIPS.COM and from what I could glean from other resources -25 on boost seems agressive. SW thought -20 was about it. I am not saying this is right or wrong, just offering a point of referance for validation.

What is our confidence that we have the gross timing correct on your chart?

I feel good about the relative timing measurements, just not sure about the gross timing values. That is, 15 deg of boost retard looks good(40-25=15).

Just not sure about hitting -40deg at WOT preboost and -25 deg on boost adds up. -35 and -20 on good fuel with cool intake temps might seem more in line. (The 69EZ adjusts timing for temps).

One way to verify would be to scope it at idle.

OK, I am not an expert on the 69EZ but here is what I have gleaned.

The earliest it can fire is 15 BTDC.

Delay time and Dwell period is calculated by the 69EZ from the earliest timing point depending on temp, boost, rate/RPM.

The earliest point plus the computed delay equals the firing point.

In Start Mode the ignition fires at the earliest firing point of 15BTDC. When RPM exceeds 630, timing shifts to a calculated value of 0 deg +/- 3 w throttle closed.

Thus, if your scope tells you you are firing at at close to 0 deg at idle or +15 when cranking before the motor starts, your timing curve should be dead on. If not that would give you the amount we need to shift the timing curve.

You may have already done all this to build your curve and I may be playing catch up as this is a bit out there for me.


I am also wondering if the C2T's "inductive pulse generator" signel is compatible with and can trigger a programmable MSD?

Keep up the good work! SmileWavy

Hello

Thanks for the clarification regarding the fuel.

As to the datalogger, I use an INNOVATE LM3 AUX BOX. ........ this device is great as soon as it want to work correctly ! I tried many to time to contact with INNOVATE about this ....I never get any answer :mad: ...anyway, as all others devices were from Innovate, I didn't get any choice and I bought a new LM3 .

Oh you installed an LM3 on your bike ??? interesting .... just curious to know how you connect your laptop PC and launch the measurement while you drive the bike ? :D:D ;)

I have Aprilia RSV 1000cc with big bore kit + race exhaust and I log widenband AF on both cylinders to tune them separately. One with LC-1 and the other with LM-1 and the LMA-3 connects both of them and provides 5 more channels, rpm,throttle and so on. LM-1 can log all of the data for 40mins. I originally bought those logging devices for my 2.7 biturbo audi but it's about done tuning wice.

Talking about timing I cant regulate the timing on the bike but on the audi I get almost solid 20 degrees advance with 1.5bar and 9.1 compression with water meth injection helping.

If I ever manage to score a 930 I will try water meth with it too unless someone has proven it bad for these motors.

[QUOTE=smurfbus;5056186]Guys: Euro fuel is RON and US fuel is RON+MON/2. So euro 98 oct equals about US 93 oct.

According to this octane conversion chart I found online your Euro octane to USA octane calculation is wrong.

It says euro 98 is more like USA 93.5
Octane rating conversions between US and EURO gasoline - M3 Forum 2010 2009 BMW M3 2008 BMW M3 BMW E90 M3 E92

Here's a copy of it from another forum site:
Octane rating conversions between US and EURO gasoline

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a set of conversion tables I worked up for octane ratings. The European octane rating is RON, where as the US octane rating is an average of (RON+MON)/2. The following table comes from the following web site:
http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/R...RONMONPON.html

Formula for converting EURO to US rating
I've also come up with a pretty good formula that approximates US octane rating based on EURO RON rating, and visa versa. The formula is US=RON*(21/22):

EURO RON US (R+M)/2
90 85.9
92 87.8
95 90.7
96 91.6
98 93.5
100 95.5
105 100.2
110 105


Formula for converting US to EURO octane
And reversing that forumula, wet get: RON = US*(22/21)
US (R+M)/2 EURO RON
87 91.1
88 92.2
89 93.2
90 94.3
91 95.3
92 96.4
93 97.4
94 98.5
95 99.5
96 100.6
97 101.6
98 102.7
99 103.7
100 104.8

Hello Speedy

Jurassic injection ??? :D:D:D

Of course, that's not a bad idea.

Personnaly, I just want to keep the car philosophy as close as possible to the original car.

It is not possible to change anything inside the EZ69 ignition. But I think it is possible to false some input(s) in order to get desired timing.

Interesting measurement setup for your bike !!! You didn't get any problem with humidity or connection ? The Innovate connections are a bit sensitive .... do you share this opinion ?

Your Audi seems to be correctly powered !!!!! ;)

Thanks for the chart and clarification !!!:)

So the difference between US93.5 and EURO 98 is quite small ...

The difference between the 89 and 93 pump octanes we have here is huge.
Just fill your car with 89 sometime and floor it and listen to all the intense crackling and knocking detonation... it's ridiculous and there's no way a 930 engine could tolerate it.

So, I don't see how the difference between 93.5 and 98 would be any less a difference. In fact the difference is .5 more.

Europe has had better premium grade pump gas than the USA ever since Sunoco stopped selling their #260 premium fuel at the pump way back around 1978

Keith,

As to the confidence to the chart, I do believe it is quite close to the reality . Of course, it is not a laboratory measurement and it is possible that some deviation has occured.... but not such big I think. Actually, my purpose for this measurement was not to get a metrologic measurement but to get an idea about the behavior of the EZ69 first.

Actually this is very good question from you ( I can recognize your curiosity and your skill ;) ) to ask for the reference I used for the initial calculation and how I have proceed to make this measurement !

First of all, as mentionned into my post, the measurement is made between the cranck trigger and the high voltage coil input. ( not ouput). That's true that I didn't connected it to the ignition spark plug wire ...maybe a small offset is provided by the coil or the distributor itself. I could investigate in this way...

Secondly, for my calculation, I took the idle (1000 RPM) timing shift as reference. At idle ( warm engine) , the timing is set at 0°. (This value is written into the Porsche workshop book) . It has been controled with timing light. So I measured the time between the impulse (the highest value in the center) and the positive edge ( edge rising). (by the way, the scope is started at idle after crancking )

As to the dwell, the period is always equal to the period of the impulse. But the duty cycle of the Dwell is progressive since the current loading time is roughly equal to 3.9 ms at all RPM. I will double check this point accurately...to be honnest with you I was more focused on the EZ69 behavior itself. Somewhere, the Dwell doesn't affect too much the timing measurement it self, since the time measurement is made between the impulse and positive edge rising ( when coil circuit is open and the spark occurs).

Lastly, I just received an EZ69 that I bought as spare parts.

When I will have some time, I should be able to measure it in my workshop. ( I can reproduce the sensors behavior via some resistors and that's easy to reproduce the trigger signal as now I know the shape )

As the cranck output, sincerely, I don't know if it can be connected directly to the MSD device. But if it can't be directly , I think it is possible to add a signal conditionner to do a correct job. ;)

T,

You should have mailed it if you referenced it off idle and verified idle to be zero w a timing lite.

I believe idle can vary from 0 by plus or minis 3 deg depending on motor temp. This might give a 6 deg swing if the motor was cold when establishing idle as the reference point v a hot motor.

This could take the WOT non boosted from 40 to a more palatable 34 deg and the on boost from -25 to a still aggressive -19 (same as a euro 930).

However, it you verified the idle at TDC with a timing light then this is not a factor.

Just thinking out loud.

????

Keep it up. If anyone ever sees all your "stuff" in one place and what you have been able to do and figure out, they would be blown away.

Are you actively managing boost by rpm?

"( the reference is given by the idle advance which is equal to 0° ...it has been controled )"

I understood that just the way you hoped it would have been done. So I bet it was just an misunderstanding with the use of word 'controlled'.

OffTopic:
Thierry, Yes the connections on earlier Innovates devices suck badly (The new LM2 has better connctors). I have the bike in a garage and only drive in good weather so humidity was not a problem for me. I hope to get to use those devices in a 930 someday. Any good 930/964t's in France. PM me if you have any leads I could consider. I can also show you pics of the setup on the bike. I don't want to fill this thread with offtopic stuff.

The 0.5 oct difference on what I said in 'about 93' is far less that the difference in east coast 91 and west coast 91 IMO. Cali 91 is real pisswater but with water/meth injection it still gives good power. You can compare euro 98 to 94oct just as well.

On some states in US you can get pump 94oct which is good stuff. Then you have pump race gas too on some states and even in CA. Not to mention E85 (allthoug I doubt 930 can easily be converted to use that even with EFI)

Just use the best gas available and tune accordinly.

100 Octane Gas
 

Since octane is being discussed I thought it apropo to post this link for finding 76 unleaded 100 Octane gas here in SoCal. But OUCH today it's $7.49/gal at my local Huntington Beach station. Oh the price of BHP!!

COMPETITION 100 UNLEADED RACING GASOLINE

Keith,

Interesting thought as usually

Something which I am 100 % , the porsche workshop book is mentionning the following value for ignition testing ( sorry I can not publish any scan if I read correctly the forum rules)

ignition at idle ( warm engine) 1000 rpm : 0°

ignition at 3000 rpm with 0.4 bar absolute in EZ69: 40° (+/- 3°)

ignition at 3000 rpm with 1.75 bar absolute in EZ69 : 21 ° (+/-3°)

This is the PORSCHE official values

These 3 datas has been verified on my car by the workshop using a timing light and the Porsche procedure. The workshop measured exactly 0° at idle (1000 RPM) and about 22-23 at 3000 RPM /1.75 bar absolute.

Yes, you are right, if the idle reference is shifted by few degrees, my measurement is also shifted by the same value. As also said yesterday, I will take time to verify accurately the DWELL time ( there is maybe some little variation which muct be included ) .

However, I am also 100% of something else. The FVD ignition plate increase ignition timing of 6° on all RPM range....and definitively, there is no burned , knock damage or something like that reported. I know this tuner modified a lot of C2T cars. Like you , I was very reluctant to this idea at begining. But sincerely, it seems there is a wide margin before knocking ....

I will update my thread with some dyno measurement and thought ...of course you ( and others) are welcome to discuss your idea , knowledge and experiences ...;)

Hello Smurf

Sorry for my poor english...:(.. that's true that's not easy sometime for me to explain correctly my thought or idea .... :(

My meaning was that the ignition timing of my car was verified with a timing light. At 1000 RPM , the measured timing is 0° ( warm engine).

OFF TOPIC:

Do you mean you are looking for a 930/964 T cars ??? :eek:

Dear Mark

Of course I do understand that you want to save your car and keep it as reliable as possible. It is an highly respectable philosophy ! ;)

Just a small thought, if you run too small ignition timing the exhaust valve seat and head output see a temp increase.... ( especially if you also tuned the AFR to lower value than the stock). Finally you try to increase engine power but with lower timing you decrease efficiency .... less efficiency equal temp increase

Cylinder wash from too rich isn't healthy either but that's under the dwur thread.

OT: Yes, I have been looking for a 930 or 964t for some time now and already paid a deposit of one 964t but the seller sold to another buyer.

Guys,

Was looking through a thread last night and saw that "Win Rice" had posted a timing spec. for 930's that Stephen Kasper of Imagine Auto fame had quoted at one time. Knowing Stephen, I have always found him sharp on 930's and a credible tuner. Thought it would be helpful here even if it only adds credence to the opinions of us old bastards who think they know what they are talking about.
Pretty much matches what the 4 experts had to say.

12* BTDC initial

22 -23* BTDC @ 3000 RPM

18* BTDC @ 6800 RPM


Cole