Changed headers from B&B to Fabspeed today
 

A month ago I installed a set of B&B headers in my 930. The install, well..... They went in sort of ok. I mean, I had to hack off a substantial part of the engine mount console, which I didn't like. The crossover pipe had a massive conflict with it. Until there was a one inch conflict between the wastegate out pipe and the drip tank. I'm not talking about a small conflict. No. The pipe took up basically one inch of space that was normally taken by the drip tank. We are thinking, there is no way this is right. Now, I have heard about quality control issues with those guys, but this is just way beyond. Being in Phoenix, I have some recourse. Warranties are warranties, but who wants to stop a project mid way, put the thing in a box, spend a shi!tload of money in shipping and wait, what, a week, two? Maybe more? I'm sure most people in farther places would just swallow it and start hacking the things. Hacking a 2 thousand dollar header. But again, being in Phoenix, I grabbed the thing and drove over to B&B and said, hey, WTF is this?? I said, I want this wastegate outlet pipe to look like the one that you display for customers over in that engine in the front office. I WILL pick it up tomorrow, fixed, before lunch. Thank You. No ifs ands or buts. I mean, when the local guys are trying to support the local header manufacturer, they gotta try harder. He said, ah, we know about those. It was some guy we had for a little bit and he screwed some headers up. I'm thinking, if you are aware of this and there are batch numbers on every header and you KNOW who built them, why not recall? Hope there are no complaints? Hope that, being far away and not go to through the trouble of shipping and the car being on the lift taking shop time, the customer does some hacking. Mind you, this is not a 400 dollar OBX. Sure enough, next day it's ready and worked beautiful. I put them in and went about my business. Better performance, better sound, much earlier spool, all that. I'm sure there is some way to pulse tune a header, or whatever, but really man, a header is a header and at the end of the day it's all about the driver with the bigger balls. So they did it for me and I was happy.

But was I? I figured, hey, I owe my friend some favors, he is going to need headers soon, so let me try out some Fabspeeds and see if I like them. If I do, my buddy can use the B&Bs. I order a set. They come. Wow! Amazing finish. Beautiful welds. I can't really describe but the entire thing looks as if a lot more care and attention were spent. I have heard all sorts of things regarding these headers including being Chinese. Look, I don't care if they are made in Somalia if they can get Somalians to weld like this. Even the drip tank looks that much better. The tube going down to the flange has no gap or even trace of the tube meeting the flange. It's all welded and ground down perfectly. Necessary? No. But they did it. The flange holding the weight of the wastegate pipe is ridiculously overbuilt. Everything looks overbuilt. No funny wrenches to take them on or off. Nah. Just an extension with a flex joint does the job. Put in a torque wrench and you are done. When it comes time to remove them (when those nuts are frozen on there) it's that much easier. No massive shoebox heat exchager boxes. They are shaped beautifully. The only thing I didn't care for was the bolt on up pipe for the heat instead of being welded. Sure there is adjustability but it's not really necessary. I would have prefered welded up pipes. Then there are other little details like the crossover pipe being straighter when looking from the top. It just looks better. Especially from the rear if running a zork with no valance. Everything just looks better finished. They even take the time to smooth out sharp edges on the flanges. Why I don't know, but it's done. I have to give credit where credit is due. These are great headers. Not cheap, but for the same price as B&B, it just looks like a better product. Oh, and for the hacked off engine mount console? I had a brand new one so I put in on and there was plenty of room. Sorry for the quality of the pics but I'll post some more as I get them. The last three pictures are of the B&Bs that came out of my car.

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Found another picture. The bung and plug. Again, just better finish and attention to detail.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1275118473.jpg

I'm surprised they weld the O2 bung right before the turbo flange in both cases. Not the best place IMHO, but then you have to have one somewhere on the system to match the factory.

Anyway the fabspeeds look great. Let us know how the finish up and perform.

I could have saved you a lot of money and time and you would have more power.
Mine aren't pretty though if that matters.
Evolution Motorsports has installed my headers, give them a call and you'll be selling these as well.

Agreed.

Still, that is some excellent looking well thought out work.

If anyone has seen Mr. Ed Bighi's car it is pretty clear he knows 930's and what he is doing.

Does the Fabspeed header have a double wall slipjoint where the secondary pipes join?

B&B does have a double wall slip joint there and it seals better than a single wall slip joint while allowing the motor and headers to expand and contract without cracking around the collectors.

If the reference to Evolution Motorsports for an opinion on headers or anything else is the same place thats in Naples, Florida... Oh Man do I have ever extremely negative fully documented dishonest experiences with them... Just ask me or my bank.

Evolution Motorsports is in Phoenix AZ. They do incredible things with Porsches. They specialize in water cooled 996's and 997's. The do all the work on my 996TT which has their GT660 kit. My car dyno's at 550 hp at all wheels and with the same amount of torque. They don't really do too much to my 930T except minor stuff.

Glad to hear it's not the place that was in Naples, Fl.

My negative experience with them was about 3 years ago and maybe they went out of business since then with the current economy combined with their lack of honesty and integrity.

JF,
I agree the double wall slip joint is the preferred joint, but over time, it is going to leak as well. I've had my B&B's about 4 years/14K miles and it leaks a little at the joint when the engine is fully up to temp. Had an annoying "tick-tick" that I mistook for rockers out of adjustment. ;)

The slip joint on my B&B's have a little carbon tracing around the edges, but there's no exhaust leakage noise.

I had an exhaust tick tick when I got the car but it was a pulled exhaust port stud on the #1 head and it was leaking by the steel exhaust port gasket.

A tick tick description of an exhaust noise is usually the intermittant sound of one exhaust port leaking while all 6 cylinders are running, while a slip joint would get the pulses of all 6 cylinders and would be more of a steady exhaust leak noise at idle.

You could try squeezing some red silicone into the slip joint groove before assembling and installing them. It may or may not help.

Next I'd try squeezing the outer tube of the slip joint just enough with a high quality T bolt clamp to make a better seal and still allow slip. If that doesn't squeeze enough a good concentric muffler clamp should do it without clamping it too tight.
Then if none of that works you can cut out the slip joint and weld in one of those stainless bellows type expansion joints like some GHL headers used.

First off, sorry going off-topic a bit.

JF,
I was thinking of using a flex pipe, similar to the one below, next time my engine is out. Weld one end to one side and clamp on the other. I wouldn't remove the slip joint just overlay the flex on it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1275158965.jpg

That's exactly what I did. I used a Tru-Flex bellows on my Fabspeeds. For the uninitiated, there is an exhaust bellows under the braiding, surrounded by what looks like steel wool. The braiding holds everything together. Zero leak up to 800 C.

I think the Fabspeeds are the best there is, period. Great fit, and 100% Made in USA (I asked them). I wish they would install the bellows stock, but I guess they want to keep the price competitive with what else is out there.

Is there a reason the wast gate pipe could not be shortened a lot other than it would put the WG in a non stock location?

Seems like it adds unneeded volume.

Also, seems that if on an equal length system like Brian's if one put split WG's at the collector's, the secondary tube's could be down sized as they would not have to flow the gasses for the turbo and the WG through the secondaries. Just the turbo's.

Pulling the WG of a mid way section on the secondaries seems like it might creat a slowing of velocity after said intersection unless it is down sized after said intersection.

I never liked the WG at the turbo but that is a place where the volume of the secondaries is reduced by about 50% just before it enters a T3 flange so it is a good place to not have much effect on velocity.

Just a thought. May make little or no difference in the real world.

The angle of the "elephant nose" as I call it is also a problem. Some I've seen that are more than 90* which is really hard to get a good signal from as rpm's climb.
I have a twin WG system option for my headers which has very short tubes leading to dual 38mm TiAL wast gates. Very precise boost control.

I'm now at six years on my Manzie headers with no slip joint - no cracks here. Are you sure it's needed?

Don,
The area around the slip joint has carbon tracking and some noise is emanating from the joint, nothing when cold, worst when engine is fully up to temperature. I think it is the metal to metal wear from heat cycling and an imperfect joint.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1275226352.jpg

Brian,

I like your dual exit option.


First, what is keeping us from putting a flanged connection right at the 'pig's snout" and hang the WG right there thus reducing the WG volume significantly.


Secondly, just started thinking about this but I am wondering about is the effect on velocity and back pressure when we bleed off pressure part way along a secondary tubes.

This would have the effect of up-sizing the tubing past its connection point in that the exhaust velocity will be quickly reduced which adds to back pressure.

I know the "pig's nose" is a less than ideal set up. However, it dose seem that it is at a point where the tube volume is already being greatly reduced to enter the Turbo.


Thus, bleeding off pressure right at the entrance of the turbo might better for maintaining velocity along the secondary tube and keeping back pressure at a minimum.

Maybe even make the WG connection (s) as part of the primary to secondary collector.

Again a place of turbulence already. This would also allow a smaller size secondary from the collector to the turbo as it would not have to supply the WG.

Might be a better fit on an equal length system like yours where things are in a more orderly manner.

Again, if we take our WG off 'at' the collector, 1) less gasses will have to flow through the secondary and 2) its velocity will not be interrupted just before it enters the turbo.

I am not sure how much reducing header volume effects boost response nor if we can reduce back pressure say a half of a PSI on boost, will translate to measurable or noticeable performance gains.

Just a thought.

I prefer a flex joint between the banks on a single turbo system, but I don't think that it is mandatory, just a good design practice. I think it puts less stress on the flange to head seal. I got rid of the slip joint because I have seen them randomly throw off the lambda sensor readings when they are leaking.

Assuming this is true and slip joints leak, what might this mean if we have a bunch of them on a turbo system?

Seems a slip joint leak would be pretty small and should not be detectable unless it lets air into the exhaust. That under boost there would be little chance for air to enter the pressurized header exhaust area.

True, I can't see how any air would or could leak into an exhaust header slip joint thats under positive exhaust pressure at all times while the motor is running.

This is a part load effect, not full load. The pressure in the exhaust is very unsteady. On average it is above atmospheric, but the pulses also go slightly below atmospheric under low load, letting air aspirate into the exhaust.

If you have CIS you don't care. You are pig rich all the time and there is nothing you can do about it. With EFI you usually run closed loop at part load, and then it matters. The false lean readings walk the adaptives rich over time.

CIS is only pig rich if not adjusted properly. Any gap in a slip joint large enough to throw off AFR readings is unacceptable.

SS, where is your O2 located and do you have a short straight through muffler?

Mine is located in the Fabspeed location shown in this thread. I agree that no leaks are the goal, but at WOT there is no aspiration as the exhaust pressure is too high. For CIS the part load leaks won't bother you much. You don't have closed loop control, unless you have the PWM lambda sensor. It has no adaptive, so it probably wouldn't cause much problem even with that. I know a lot of cars with slip joints and CIS that seem fine.

Pig rich might be a little
mean, but a lot of people ha their CO cranked up to richen up the top end. They are usually at 13.2 or worse at part load. That is pig rich compared to 14.7 IMO. EFI can easily do 14. That's why the fuel consumption is
so much better with EFI.

My CIS runs fine at 14.7AF part load and even 15.2AF runs fine part load. Over 15.3 it started to do hick ups on light load.
I hope my B&Bs will last but the WG pipe looks to be beaten even narrower where the turbo oil canister rests? Must have been some sort of fitment issue?

Fuel consumption is generally not any better for EFI vs CIS if the CIS is adjusted properly. Problem is that most CIS is not adjusted properly. This has been covered in other threads.

The stock turbo oil sump tank will not fit with B&B, maybe someone tried to make it fit.

So you had the closed loop accelertion lean condition with the old slip joint but it went away with the woven style conector?

My first thought would have been there might be a need for some type of compensation triggered by throtle angle or maifold vac for times when acceleration is allowed under closed loop.

Otherwise I would think any acceleration during closed loop would naturally make for a lean condition at first untill the Lamda function could compensate.

I do not know that an O2 sensor can compensate that fast. Expecially if it is an older sensor.

Just a thought.

My understanding of the way our lambda systems work is that they permit a relatively small adjustment to the mixture that is primarily determined by the cone shape in the airflow meter and the control pressure inside the fuel distributor just as in CIS without lambda control. As a result, there is no need for the lambda system to react in an ultrafast way to throttle changes while it is operating in closed loop.

That said, big air leaks into the exhaust at light throttle can certainly fool the O2 sensor into thinking the motor is running leaner than it really is and richening the mixture in response.

Was refering to SS's EFI lean spot.

CIS suffers from a lean surge to a small degree with acceleration and dose not shift AFR's in any special way from cruse to accel or accel on boost AFR's. Just the meterin position changes with air flow. Some WUR's do lower control pressure with acceleration but not th 3.3's.



CIS turns the Lamda on and off mostly by throttle angle I belive.

Yeah, after you bought an adjustable warm-up regulator, a wide range O2 sensor, and adjusted the crap out of it for a couple of weeks! :)

My own experience with EFI was about 3% better fuel consumption on my mostly highway drive with just injection, and about 6% with fuel and timing control. I could see where EFI could not produce any benefit though. It depends on the tuning, the hardware, and what you are after.

double post, sorry.

CIS at 14.7 and EFI / MAP can have the same AFR but that dose not mean they will get the same MPG.

The metering assembly on CIS adds restriction to the intake plus there is a lot of extra plumbing, twists, and turns. This adds work to the piston during the intake stroke. I think the term is pumping losses.

Then as SS notes, an EFI car can run more aggressive timing. Some run over 40 deg at cruse compaired to about 26 for a 930.

Also there is a much better ability to bend the ignition curve and part because it can be run closer to an ideal knowing that with intake temps and other changes in environmental conditions it can compensate.

Thus, more power is made with the same fuel.

Just changing the stock muffler to a low restriction can reduce pumping losses and increase MPG.

Cis has no overrun fuel cut which also makes mpg go down. my bl wur was really easy to get set. Two test drives was all it needed to get the cruise set. Now I need to hack up a suitable bolt to get the accel a bit richer. If anyone knows the thread on the bolt end that goes to bl wur please PM me.

I think I will go EFI later on but only because I like to tinker with my cars.

Ok. The headers have been for a couple of weeks. No leaks. As for performance compared to B&B, at least as good. But for me I've found other pluses. I run without a rear valance and a zork and I really appreciate a more even look to the tubing without those huge heater boxes. Also, I'm one of those guys who is obsessed with ease of removal and funny bent wrenches aren't my idea of things I would like to use to remove finicky nuts on studs. With the way the heat exchagers are done on these, a long socket is all that is needed. Or an extension with a flex joint. Getting a torch up there is a lot easer as well. Anway, I like them a heck of a lot more than B&B. I also threw in a two oulet muffler since they are made to be removed from the flange that attaches to the turbo. I like this since I don't really care for messing around with whatever is holding the flange to the turbo. At least not often. A 15 mm socket onto a nut on a v-clamp, loosen it, pop the muffler off, then slide the zork onto the same flange, is my cup of tea. It's also, like Brian's mufflers, one of those that's so even when seen from behind that I can run without a valance. I run my zork just under the bumper for clearance reasons and to provide an easier exit for hot air. Anyway, so far I'm pretty happy with his stuff. Easy guy to talk to as well.

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I am puzzled by this thread. This guy bought not one, but two sets of headers which are known to be inferior products to what is available.

I would have gone for the most power gains possible for the money, which is neither of these headers. That just seems like the point of putting headers on the car. Extra power.

It seems like a lot of rejoicing about settling for less.

Thanks for your concerns regarding my header purchases DDDD, but you don't need to worry. And my friend is very happy with the B&Bs. I am very happy with these. I feel the power is fine, the fit is excellent, and the heat every bit as good. The most hp for the money? I don't really care. I just needed heat with a little less lag and they did the job. As did B&B. As for buying 2 sets of headers, it's ok. Back in 92-93 I tried every muffler possible in my 911. Borla, B&B, Monty, some others, SSIs, back to stock exchangers, my own design, etc... Hence, I'm used to trying different things. Right now these provide all that I require. Easy to take off if need be. If something happens to one during one of my off road snow excursions, I can call them up and have a new set in 24 hours. I could join the cool header of the year club, but for me these suit me perfectly.

Ed, I want to thank you for sharing your experience. I was leaning towards Fabspeed before I read your posts but this really convinced me.

I've got a 79 930 and I ordered the Panamera Turbo/S/C4S Complete System: X-Pipe and Maxflo Mufflers with Dual-Tips.

I'm also ripping out my old intercooler and will be done with O-Rings and leaks that has been a pain to say the least, with turbo lag to boot.

You're criteria is similar to mine. I'm not looking for absolute top power. I want a trouble free easy to work on, quality piece that is held to tight tolerances. I don't want to hack or bend anything to make it fit and I want it to sound good. I think this is a winner. Thanks again for your very helpful post with picture!

I will report back when it's all done.

DDDD, I realize this is an old post but maybe you are subscribed to it.

So tell us, what is better than Fabspeed? I'm always looking for more data, information and ideas. You tear down Ed while not offering anything constructive. If there's something better I'd like to hear your opinion as to why. Or is it that the name Billy Boat on your Driver License?

Since this thread has been brought back up, I am curious about this as well. So fabspeed, b&b, and even my glh set have a bung right before the turbo. I read on here somwhere that after the turbo is ideal spot. I plugged mine and put one in after the turbo. Is that still the censensus?

Fusionhead- *I think* they are refering to RarleL8 header design. See page one...

The stock location for the O2 sensor is before the turbo on the J-pipe. My headers (yes RarlyL8 is what D4 is referring to I assume) have bungs located on both secondary pipes as an option when tuning. My mufflers all have a bung after the turbo and before the muffler body, for a permanent installation.
All these locations work but there is that rare but fatal possibility that an O2 sensor tip can shatter sending shrapnel through your turbo. I have one of these sitting on a shelf and man is it ugly.