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EBS/Millenium Cylinder roughness - should I worry

I happened across something of concern in another thread on a 3.2 SS build using EBS racing bored/honed cylinders and JE pistions. As everyone is probably aware, EBS sends the cylinders to Millenium for bore/hone. Folks were commenting that the cylinder honing process Millenium uses is too rough and can cause the rings to either not seat or wear improperly causing oil consumption issues, plug fouling, poor compression etc...

I have just completed a 3.2 -> 3.4 build using EBS cylinders/JE pistons. The motor is fully assembled but have not fired it up and started the break-in yet. The work was done early in 2019, so possibly they have fixed whatever problems they had as some of the threads I found were several years old.

Should I be worried? I have a seventh cylinder done with the same process in which we found a crack which can be used for inspection...

Thanks,
Bill

Old 05-28-2020, 07:42 AM
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I'd inspect the cracked cylinder. It can be checked by most machine shops in five minutes or less using a profilometer. If the surface roughness is 15-17 Ra you're going to have an oil consumption issue. I don't think it matters what brand of rings, it's going to eat them up.

If you can't find someone locally to check it, ship it to me. Like I said, it takes two seconds to get a reading if you have the equipment.

-Tony
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Old 05-28-2020, 08:23 AM
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The issue is not with Millennium's boring/plating/honing process as they can deliver RA 4-8 BUT it needs to be specified which EBS did not in my case. This was early 2019 going from 3.2L to 3.4L. Fortunately for me my builder checked RA/RPK/RVK for any issues and was able to send my cylinders back to Millennium to get it right. My RAs were 20 to 26 and EBS was not concerned with these values btw.
I would have the RA checked now otherwise I'd always worry about this.
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Last edited by Helix8; 05-28-2020 at 09:26 AM..
Old 05-28-2020, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix8 View Post
The issue is not with Millennium's boring/plating/honing process as they can deliver RA 4-8 BUT it needs to be specified which EBS did not in my case. This was early 2019 going from 3.2L to 3.4L. Fortunately for me my builder checked RA/RPK/RVK for any issues and was able to send my cylinders back to Millennium to get it right. My RAs were 20 to 26 and EBS was not concerned with these values btw.
I would have the RA checked now otherwise I'd always worry about this.
Thanks, I will check with EBS. Total bummer as my engine is completely assembled.
Old 05-28-2020, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by shoooo32 View Post
I'd inspect the cracked cylinder. It can be checked by most machine shops in five minutes or less using a profilometer. If the surface roughness is 15-17 Ra you're going to have an oil consumption issue. I don't think it matters what brand of rings, it's going to eat them up.

If you can't find someone locally to check it, ship it to me. Like I said, it takes two seconds to get a reading if you have the equipment.

-Tony
I may take you up on that, will send you a PM if I can't find someone local to take a look for me.
Bill
Old 05-28-2020, 10:57 AM
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Ra 20-26 and EBS was not worried says it all. If you want to order via EBS then you have to specify what surface finish you want. They either don't understand or they don't care. When I raised a concern they quickly concluded my issue with oil burn must be the aftermarket Megasquirt.....
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:12 PM
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I did speak with Don at EBS racing today. He said they are seeing Ra between 10 and 15 and that is well within the tolerances of all the ring manufacturers that he has spoken with, including he manufacturer of the rings I used for my build. He didn't seem to be dismissing my concerns, and offered to check and re-do my cylinders if required, which would be easy enough except that I would need to tear the engine down to do so.

Is there another spec besides what the ring manufacturers would required, according to Don at least the ring manufacturers are OK with Ra of 15 being "well within spec".

Bill
Old 05-28-2020, 03:28 PM
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Ra10-15 is for cast iron cylinders (as most engines use) which will be run in and thereby smoothened. With Nickasil a smoother finish is required. Original Mahle cylinders are Ra less than 5.
Ra15 will not work with nickasil
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:46 PM
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Hmmm I sent a set of Carrera alusils to be bored to 98 mm and plated with EBS in 2018. Still sitting on the shelf until I get all my parts set up for the build. They look good but I am going to have a local shop put a profilometer on them to check - hopefully they come out to Ra 4-5. Hopefully not screwed. I will report back once I know.
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Old 05-29-2020, 05:13 AM
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I did not check the Ra on the 90mm millennium cylinders with JE pistons I fired up last week. I had concerns about some pitting in the bore itself, but was told by millennium that was perfectly acceptable and within their range. So far so good though per the owner
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Old 05-29-2020, 07:24 AM
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What does it cost to have a set of cylinders replated?
Old 05-29-2020, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvporschepilot View Post
I did not check the Ra on the 90mm millennium cylinders with JE pistons I fired up last week. I had concerns about some pitting in the bore itself, but was told by millennium that was perfectly acceptable and within their range. So far so good though per the owner
Do you know when the work was done on the cylinders. Seems like early 2019 was when the issue first started to come up (exactly when mine were done).
Bill
Old 05-29-2020, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Dpmulvan View Post
What does it cost to have a set of cylinders replated?
In Canada going through Millenium's subsidiary Fast Enterprises it's $329 CAD per which could mean that I am potentially out $1974 CAD if the Ra is out of spec. Hope mine are OK as I would have wasted $1600 CAD on the first go round. I can't find anyone locally to check the Ra so I will have to ship one out to be checked first, then decide what to do.

There a couple things I need to chase down before I go that step. I quite frankly don't know what to think.
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Old 05-29-2020, 08:48 AM
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I just spoke with one of our local engine builders here in Campbell CA, they are well know around the world building race engines and air-cooled engine service/repair. I spoke directly with the guy who's name is on the business. I don't want to publish his name here, but he should be considered a trusted source of information regarding this topic.

I explained the situation of having Milenium bore, plate and hone a set of Carrera 3.2 cylinders and have concerns that the surface roughness is too high to allow proper ring seating. His response was, "we do exactly that with that same supplier all the time, I have no way to measure the surface roughness, we install them as they come in and have never had any issues. I would not worry about it."

He did recommend using a "break-in oil" from a supplier called "Driven" or equivalent.

Bill
Old 05-29-2020, 10:33 AM
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Just because JWE has not had a problem does not mean there is not a problem here.......
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Old 05-29-2020, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by wjdunham View Post
Do you know when the work was done on the cylinders. Seems like early 2019 was when the issue first started to come up (exactly when mine were done).
Bill
It was indeed early 2019 as I secured them from EBS just after they came back from Millennium in about Feb/March
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Old 05-30-2020, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by winders View Post
Just because JWE has not had a problem does not mean there is not a problem here.......
This was back in 2018, but everyone I talked to either was unaware this was an issue, said it wasn’t an issue, or blamed it on the rings. Except for Henry at Supertec. He knew right away and said he specs his builds at 5 Ra.
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Old 05-31-2020, 04:35 AM
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I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly happened here though. Millenium's main business is Nicasil plating. I really doubt they confused the spec for a cast iron cylinder with a Nicasil. Did something in their process change unexpectedly during the 2018/2019 timeframe where they allowed a rougher surface finish when they had previously been OK? They claim they measure everything before it goes out. Of the failures that occurred, has it be verified that everything else was done correctly - primarily the ring gaps? What is the percentage of motors built with their cylinders where the rings failed to seat properly?
Old 05-31-2020, 06:21 AM
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I can't speak for anyone besides myself, but all of my measurements were in spec and verified repeatedly throughout the process. Inspection of machined components for aerospace is my field - I probably went a little overboard verifying tolerances on my 3.2ss.

The question I have is, what is the average oil consumption of cylinders plated by Millennium vs. new Mahle cylinders. I think we had a poll going a few years ago - I get 700-1000 miles/quart and swap in new plugs at every oil change.
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:00 AM
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I spoke directly with a tech at Millennium this morning, and he checked the EBS racing spec. sheet and they call out 8 Ra on all Porsche cylinder work. He said this spec. has been in place for a long time and not changed. I plan to have a 7th cylinder that was done in 2019 (in which we found a crack after processing) measured and will report back. Only issue is I'm not 100% sure if the crack was found after they were completed and sent back to EBS or if found by Millennium before they finished the processing... Based on the cross hatch pattern it looks like all the processing was completed.
Bill

Old 06-01-2020, 10:11 AM
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