Thread closed by moderator ????

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by Black 993

Gang, I closed the thread. The original query had been answered and it was turning into a slugfest.

A slugfest where not a single punch was landed. Speech is not violence.
When I grew up, the phase "sticks and stones" was a widely accepted concept.
As the target of some of the speech, I must say that I was not offended in the least.
I was not triggered to respond. I respond because I have something to offer and I enjoy the give and take.
Those who don't enjoy it can simply look away.

[911 SLANT]

Originally Posted by Black 993

Gang, I closed the thread. The original query had been answered and it was turning into a slugfest.



I completely agree with this. Henry, and a number of other people on this forum, are generous with their knowledge, and a lot of that knowledge is valuable intellectual property that they give us for free. If this forum was a bunch of amateurs talking about engine building, it would be useless. Supertec makes head studs and I don't see any problem with Henry posting that he uses his own head studs in his builds because he thinks they are superior. Obviously everyone is free to do their own research and make their own choices about what components to buy.

I totally agree

[911 SLANT]

Originally Posted by Black 993

Gang, I closed the thread. The original query had been answered and it was turning into a slugfest.



I completely agree with this. Henry, and a number of other people on this forum, are generous with their knowledge, and a lot of that knowledge is valuable intellectual property that they give us for free. If this forum was a bunch of amateurs talking about engine building, it would be useless. Supertec makes head studs and I don't see any problem with Henry posting that he uses his own head studs in his builds because he thinks they are superior. Obviously everyone is free to do their own research and make their own choices about what components to buy.

Black 993, your are correct for us to be lucky to have knowledgeable people to help spread this knowledge and give up precious secrets.

[winders]

Originally Posted by Black 993

Supertec makes head studs and I don't see any problem with Henry posting that he uses his own head studs in his builds because he thinks they are superior. Obviously everyone is free to do their own research and make their own choices about what components to buy.

I don't have a problem with Henry suggesting people use his head studs. I am sure they are a fine product that works well. What I have a problem with is Henry trashing another manufacturer's head studs that are known to work quite well and are certainly the more common choice of renowned performance engine builders in this country and probably abroad as well. That should not be allowed.

Most people that frequent this sub-forum research their product options here. You guys treat Henry as if he were some kind of deity. So, he should be held to a higher standard and not be allowed to mislead people here...and he is misleading people if he says the Porsche 993 Twin Turbo head studs do not work well.

[Black 993]

Originally Posted by winders

I don't have a problem with Henry suggesting people use his head studs. I am sure they are a fine product that works well. What I have a problem with is Henry trashing another manufacturer's head studs that are known to work quite well and are certainly the more common choice of renowned performance engine builders in this country and probably abroad as well. That should not be allowed.

Henry is certainly not a deity -- I think they got some things right in the Ten Commandments and idol worship remains a no-no in my book. So far as I can see from the closed thread, all he said was this:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

It wasn't until the factory noted an unusually high failure rate of these Dilivar studs that they went back to steel studs in early 993 engines. This was very short lived. Warranty issues (weeping heads) caused them to reevaluate their choice of steel and reinvented the Dilivar. This time with an all thread monstrosity that offered a slightly more aggressive clamping force and marginally reduced failure rate.

You are free to agree or disagree. The man was sharing his opinion and it's completely legitimate for you or anyone else to ignore him or provide different information or whatever you like. But we're definitely not going to start policing people's opinions about head studs here.

[winders]

Originally Posted by Black 993

You are free to agree or disagree. The man was sharing his opinion and it's completely legitimate for you or anyone else to ignore him or provide different information or whatever you like. But we're definitely not going to start policing people's opinions about head studs here.

I will make it a point to disagree with him then.

It's one thing for someone to offer up his opinion and quite another for a Pelican Parts vendor to push his product on Pelican Parts while misleading people about the viability of another company's product. I am surprised you don't see the issue there.....

[Jeff Alton]

Closed in 3.....2......1......

[Black 993]

Originally Posted by winders

It's one thing for someone to offer up his opinion and quite another for a Pelican Parts vendor to push his product on Pelican Parts while misleading people about the viability of another company's product. I am surprised you don't see the issue there.....

I don't see the issue because I don't see the situation that way. I don't see any conspiracy at all in fact. I saw someone offering an opinion about head studs. I have a great deal of confidence in the intelligence, resourcefulness, and judgment of the members of this forum to make good decisions for themselves about head studs and a great many other things as well. I don't like infantilizing people or protecting them from discussion and debate. We're grown men here, and most of us have built our own engines. Keep the faith. We're going to be okay.

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by winders

I will make it a point to disagree with him then.

It's one thing for someone to offer up his opinion and quite another for a Pelican Parts vendor to push his product on Pelican Parts while misleading people about the viability of another company's product. I am surprised you don't see the issue there.....

Scott,

You could be right but your disagreement with someone else is consuming you. I think you are trying so hard to convince people that he is wrong and it is obvious now it’s becoming your obsession. Life is too short. Take a deep breathe and move on. You are intelligent and smart and should know better to put yourself in this kind of situation.

Tony

[Dpmulvan]

Originally Posted by ian c2

Does the identity of the moderator that closed it really matter ?
It seems a little like blaming the sherif for breaking up the 2 drunks fighting in a family restaurant...

That’s the problem today, everywhere is treated like a family restaurant.

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

OBSESSION....

In the religion of “Dilivar” like many other faith-based belief systems, suppression of the perceived “evil”, (in this case science) is fundamental.
The true believer must testify to the absolute validity of the dogma. Ostracizing, isolating, and demonizing the non-believer is part and parcel to this fixation. Virtue signaling and crusading for the “truth” is common among those with no life beyond “Dilivarism”.

[911pcars]

My POV is the popular misconception (religion) that all Dilavar is verbotten. On the contrary, all is not. Moreso with earlier versions. However, if there are breakage/failure issues with 993 twin turbo Dilavar studs, I've yet to read about them. Perhaps that issue is being suppressed? Dunno. FWIW.

If Supertec head studs are at least equivalent to the 993 studs, but cost less, I'd head that way unless I'm a stickler for factory only parts.

Sherwood

[winders]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

My POV is the popular misconception (religion) that all Dilavar is verbotten. On the contrary, all is not. Moreso with earlier versions. However, if there are breakage/failure issues with 993 twin turbo Dilavar studs, I've yet to read about them. Perhaps that issue is being suppressed? Dunno. FWIW.

If Supertec head studs are at least equivalent to the 993 studs, but cost less, I'd head that way unless I'm a stickler for factory only parts.

This post has information on why Dilivar 993 Twin Turbo head studs may be better than steel:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/11245580-post1.html

[BURN-BROS]

That thread is completely theoretical and dangerously close to mental masturbation. It’s easy to postulate the scenario, it’s another to actually quantify it. With close to 50 years of air cooled Porsche engines running around with a variety of head studs, you would think that there would be consensus. If bore distortion was a problem we would have seen it on a blow-by meter on the dyno. Since we do not, the theory is moot. While 993 Dilivar can do the job, Henry’s studs are a great alternative and fit nicely between steel and Dilivar as far as expansion rate.... if you feel that it’s a factor in your decision. Run what you feel like using,

Originally Posted by winders

This post has information on why Dilivar 993 Twin Turbo head studs may be better than steel:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/11245580-post1.html

[Speedy Squirrel]

So, you claim to be an engine builder and you don't believe bore distortion exists because you can't measure it with a BLOWBY METER?! Holey Snikes!

Originally Posted by BURN-BROS

That thread is completely theoretical and dangerously close to mental masturbation. It’s easy to postulate the scenario, it’s another to actually quantify it. With close to 50 years of air cooled Porsche engines running around with a variety of head studs, you would think that there would be consensus. If bore distortion was a problem we would have seen it on a blow-by meter on the dyno. Since we do not, the theory is moot. While 993 Dilivar can do the job, Henry’s studs are a great alternative and fit nicely between steel and Dilivar as far as expansion rate.... if you feel that it’s a factor in your decision. Run what you feel like using,

[911pcars]

What if.....
We install sensors inside a bare cylinder bolted onto a fixture, then test various stud materials and how they and the cylinder distort and change dimensions under stress, etc. while cycling the top, middle and bottom cylinder sections at typical operating temperatures?

Sounds like such a test has been performed back in the early days of automotive engineering.

I recall a test on air-cooled motorcycle cylinders that showed the upper cylinder ID increasing relative to the cooler lower section of the cylinder. Thus, so called taper boring was introduced to compensate for heat expansion and to arrive at an evenly round bore at operating temperature.

S

[BURN-BROS]

Originally Posted by Speedy Squirrel

So, you claim to be an engine builder and you don't believe bore distortion exists because you can't measure it with a BLOWBY METER?! Holey Snikes!

Where do I say it doesn’t exist?

[BURN-BROS]

Originally Posted by Speedy Squirrel

So, you claim to be an engine builder ! Holey Snikes!

And who are you? We as engine builders have multiple builds spanding decades.... of empirical data. Post yours squirrel.

Get specific, tell us what you have found.

[winders]

Originally Posted by BURN-BROS

And who are you? We as engine builders have multiple builds spanding decades.... of empirical data. Post yours squirrel.

Get specific, tell us what you have found.

Do you really want to go there? Because I can gurantee that there are many more years of experience out there in the people using 993 Twin Turbo Dilivar head studs than there are in the people using Supertec head studs. The empirical data is on the 993 Twin Turbo Dilivar head studs' side!!!!

[BURN-BROS]

Originally Posted by winders

Do you really want to go there? Because I can gurantee that there are many more years of experience out there in the people using 993 Twin Turbo Dilivar head studs than there are in the people using Supertec head studs. The empirical data is on the 993 Twin Turbo Dilivar head studs' side!!!!

So hand me empirical data stating that you need it Scott. I can provide real data because I have done the tests. It’s the real life testing that follows concern for such things.Making generic arguments based on theory is a waste of time and results layman regurgitating conjecture.

What’s the max deviation of acceptable ovality from Mahle? It’s more than you would expect and much more than I like to run.

I just did a leak down on a 98mm 3.2SS both at room temp and 5 min after shut down. The results were the same @ less than 1%. That was with stock steel head studs. Dyno data backs up this test.