BMW in 2010

[roger albert]

EXACTLY. It's tires, and that means the cross-plane-I4 or a V, right now. Ten Kate generally has the best electronics of the rest, and sure enough, they're the only plain I-4 that factors.
Too bad for us as BMW fans. They seem to have fancy exhaust tech, and electronics, but they can't use them well quite yet, and it seems, increasingly, that an even-fire-I4 is obsolete. BMW started with a clean sheet of paper, but not a clean new design. The pendulum swings.

So, any bets on KTM next year?

They're making a bit of a push at the regional level at least. Our lead instructor (Ty, also a past MotoST champ from his Aprilia days) has received a bike and support for late season testing, and will be getting a new R version shortly, including Works WP kit. He did a pilot round in the big twins class that saw him win by a large margin, but still slower than his GXSR and ZX10 times by a few seconds.

Not that that's directly applicable to the world level, it's just indicative that they're not doing a complete withdraw.

[shreddr]

in MCN's bike review section, which was filled with reviews of all makes and models, the RC8R got the highest marks of a sport bike, as rated by them, not owners.

[R111S]

Motorrad Magazin did a long term test on an RC8...er make that two RC8s. The first one suffered a Rod Bearing Failure. KTMs response - "Unglaubliches Pech"....unbelievable bad luck.



Dauertest-Zwischenbilanz: KTM RC8 - Dauertests - MOTORRAD online

[smallj]

I think the S1000RR will make improvements next year due to the fact that they have a years worth of data on all the tracks. I'd guess they score a few top 5 finishes but I would not bet on wins. A podium or two would be nice though.

[Chris Canning]

Originally Posted by roger albert

EXACTLY. It's tires, and that means the cross-plane-I4 or a V, right now. Ten Kate generally has the best electronics of the rest, and sure enough, they're the only plain I-4 that factors.
Too bad for us as BMW fans. They seem to have fancy exhaust tech, and electronics, but they can't use them well quite yet, and it seems, increasingly, that an even-fire-I4 is obsolete. BMW started with a clean sheet of paper, but not a clean new design. The pendulum swings.

So, any bets on KTM next year?

They're making a bit of a push at the regional level at least. Our lead instructor (Ty, also a past MotoST champ from his Aprilia days) has received a bike and support for late season testing, and will be getting a new R version shortly, including Works WP kit. He did a pilot round in the big twins class that saw him win by a large margin, but still slower than his GXSR and ZX10 times by a few seconds.

Not that that's directly applicable to the world level, it's just indicative that they're not doing a complete withdraw.

It will be interesting to see who,if any of the manfacturers break ranks and join Yamaha with a different firing order,i don't think as a road bike the R1 is any better than the others,but racing sells.

I feel sorry for BMW,they could have launched their bike just about any other time and it would have been fine,i've no doubt as a road bike it will just as good as any other,but we are back to race sunday,sell monday.

KTM

They have two problems,i think financially as a company they are sailing close to the wind,there is even talk of pulling the plug on the 125 GP effort,their other dilema is the V twin engine,in road trim it's 20hp behind Ducati,so they've got to find that before the other 50 at least to go racing,they have had their toe in the water with the Superstock championship and just got blown away.

[cageyar]

Originally Posted by Chris Canning

KTM
They have two problems,i think financially as a company they are sailing close to the wind,there is even talk of pulling the plug on the 125 GP effort,their other dilema is the V twin engine,in road trim it's 20hp behind Ducati,so they've got to find that before the other 50 at least to go racing,they have had their toe in the water with the Superstock championship and just got blown away.

I was hot to try and maybe get eventually an RC8 then I test rode it at Indy this year. I liked everything about the bike, fit, weight, style, except the engine. Crude is the word that comes to mind and while the power (it was a short ride-20 minutes) felt reasonable, the more you got on it, the more "crude" it felt, kind of buzzy and noisy and somewhat "agricultural". I like what KTM has done so far and I hope they make it through this economic downturn but they maybe over reaching trying to address too many market segments. Kind of a tough marketing message to beat the drum saying "Race Ready" and then pull out or curtail racing efforts.

[hawkeyejohn14]

They left King Kenny high and dry back a few years.

I like the offroad bikes though.

Cage, just read a test on the RC8 and your assessment of the engine fits with what I read. A little Agricultural, heck that sounds like my R1100S but it's air cooled and I love it.

[Chris Canning]

I rode one of the first RC8's brought into the UK,the fuelling was spot,although a lot are not,and the best thing of all it was comfortable,with a big fuel tank you could ride it for hours and big distances,but it was built to compare with other sports bikes and the engine is well short HP wise,i thought it was a really nice bike,but whats the point in a low HP sports bike

[roger albert]

Agreed. It's a pretty clear case of having been too aggressive early in the design cycle, and then having to band-aid a lot of fixes into place to meet (almost) the target power. That bike had a ridiculously long gestation period. Really 5 years from the first sneak-peak-test and Intermot (03?) until generally available to the public (08ish). That's 2 generations for most manufs. The 8R with kit parts and some tweaks looks good, and the guys here think it can reliably make another 30hp. I'm skeptical, as I think it will have oiling and breathing issues (crazy low crankcase volume - the same thing that delayed it so much in the first place) but we'll see. I'm in any event glad a fairly heavily backed one is going to be running our regional series, just to throw in some more flavor. Looks like an Aprilia team will be there too, so it's looking to be interesting. I'd consider a s1000rr, but frankly am not on pace with the fast literbike guys, and have no business up there embarassing the bike or myself.

[roger albert]

And Chris C.

I know you said you're too close to crutchlow, but what do you think. I don't follow bsb that closely (no coverage available here, unless you consider crash.net coverage) but he struck me as fast, and a crasher, back then. Seemed ok in WSS. Is that demon finally licked, or did he just not get pushed hard enough in WSS?

Who do you tag to be the A-rider? Him or Toseland? Can Toseland really make a 'come-back'
Can Rea quit running wide/off and put it together?

Interested in your thoughts.

Looking to be a poor year for yanks in that series. Looking forward to it just the same.

[TxCan01]

Originally Posted by Chris Canning

I rode one of the first RC8's brought into the UK,the fuelling was spot,although a lot are not,and the best thing of all it was comfortable,with a big fuel tank you could ride it for hours and big distances,but it was built to compare with other sports bikes and the engine is well short HP wise,i thought it was a really nice bike,but whats the point in a low HP sports bike:confused:

All of us that ride an R12S would say to ride! or...if the R12S isn't a sports bike what is?

[peter f]

Originally Posted by TxCan01

..if the R12S isn't a sports bike what is?

A good sports tourer...for those not in the panniers, pillion, centerstand thing.

PS: test ride a RC8R, Blade, Gixxer, Kwak, Duc etc etc to get the gist of the sport bike thing (as served these days...regardless who can ride these things "properly", not to mention where).

[Chris Canning]

Roger

While there are lots of things I would like to go into, but can't or won't(same difference!!)it's been a steady climb for the lad,I'd like to say that i saw it in him as a boy when his dad and i were trying to teach him how to put a bike in gear/open the throttle and feed the clutch in with little success!!,but i didn't.

He rode Supersport in 2005 and the majority of the season was no more than average,the last 4 races of that year,the penny dropped,how/why non of us have any idea including him,with the result he hit the floor running in 2006 and was the British Supersport champion.

2007 he rode the Rizla Suzuki Superbike here in the Uk,the only Suzuki superbike in the world that year on Ohlins,with no data,turned into a steep learning curve that taught him lots,he just didn't realise it at the time!!!.

2008 Rode the HM Plant semi factory Honda,lets just say it was unreliable and leave it at that,suffice to say a lot of folk took it as rider error,it wasn't!!.

He took the risk to go WSS in 2009,i hold my hands up and say i was against it and told him so in no uncertain words,he's proved me wrong(very),again the penny has dropped,gone to new tracks and been pole and set fastest laps,he has, i have to say had a very good team,with a fantastic crew chief,and he has gone to a level we could only dream of.

Toseland is a good rider,as opposed to a great one,the things he has against him,he's been there done that,and a lot of money in the bank,and he's up against a bunch of hungry kids,Cal is one of them,i don't suffer from the blinker syndrome,be it BMW's or Cal for that matter,he rode the Spies bike on Tuesday which was interesting!!,can he be No1 in the team oh yes, and WSB??,he's got as good a chance as any next year.

[EZ-RIDER]

So what did he think of the bike?

[throttlemeister]

I'm not too sure the I4 firing order etc has anything to do with it. I think that is more psychological, like Doohan did with the screamer - big bang - screamer.

[roger albert]

Not sure about that TM. Yamaha has done a fair amount of objective research (and publishing) that show that config as being easier on tires and easier to feel the limit on. They seem to feel they understand the underlying mechanism too. That, I'm not sure of, but it's almost assuredly more than psychological.

[throttlemeister]

Perhaps there are some advantages but that could also be said about the other side. But ultimately the smoothness of the rider dictates tire wear and feeling the limit. I am not too sure a smooth rider would need the Yamaha solution to make his tires last for a race. Perhaps the solution could be as simple as backing off the TC and allowing more wheel spin. Contrary as it seems, wheel spin can actually reduce tire wear.

Then again, who am I to even have ideas or suggestions about something a factory like BMW is working on.

[cageyar]

What's also interesting is that Kawasaki has been trying "big bang" technology since 2005 with Shinya Nakano and the MotoGP ZX-RR. While those results never fully materialized, you have to notice that what Melandri has been able to do with the bike after Kawasaki pulled it's full support and development is pretty amazing.

Apparently, this past spring, Kawasaki filed some patents for the 2010 ZX-10 on big bang so it looks like this technology is expanding but with an electronic twist:

"The Kawasaki design would traditionally have had problems, in that the radical nature of the firing order would have made the engine incapable of running at low RPM, due to a lack of momentum in the crank on the long 540° revolution. The second problem would have been the requirement for a very heavy and almost impractical crankshaft, which would have made the engine slow to rev, and would have limited high end RPM.

Kawasaki have solved these problems by using clever electronics. An electric motor operates only on every second revolution, during the compression stroke, and only on cylinders one and four. This tiny electric motor operates only long enough for the motor to gain momentum, and then switches off again. Engine sensors are used to monitor crank angle, degree of throttle opening, vehicle speed and gear position. The new electric motor will also be used as a generator to charge the battery when it's not boosting the crank, and that means it can do the job of the traditional alternator too.

The radical 540° gap in the firing order is double the gap that the new R1 uses, and means that the ZX-10R motor turns a full one and a half revolutions without any cylinders firing. The gap in the R1 firing order is only 270° which in itself was considered rather long.

However the most significant benefits from the Kawasaki design are that the crankshaft retains the natural balance as found in a traditional (screamer) in line four. This in effect reduces production costs, improves reliability, and also enables the normal high rev limit found in screamer engines, which means that the peak power output will not be adversely affected."

[Chris Canning]

Originally Posted by EZ-RIDER

So what did he think of the bike?

Sorry not going into it.

[TxCan01]

Big bang vs. cross plane is like fashion. Any particular company can eek out an advantage with a good design and of course a great rider or two. I really don't think it makes as much difference as the discussion it generates. Kevin Cameron has written some good insight on these things in recent issues of Cycle World. Fact is that Yamaha Moto GP bike is at a good place development wise and has been easier to ride for more riders. I think the WSBK bike is good but has some way to go as evidenced by Spies being successful but also having his difficulties and his team mate being more mid-pack. Combination of electronics, chasis and the motor. Happens to be cross-plane but... is it the main reason that its winnning? I say no!