hahah. You are the one with data. I did not pull data out of my a$$ like you...so like you said, lets leave it at that!

Lane

I thought that during some prior discussions of this issue many years ago, we as a group, amongst ourselves and no one else, also and additionally, after drinking a lot of our internal Kool-Aid, determined that through extensive metallurgical testing and eyeballing, that there were some softer spline shafts being passed on through production. These were stockpiled and dispersed randomly among different BMW models. With the exception of the f650 series. I believe a thorough search will uncover this hideous secret. Look/search for "An uncomfortable yet inconvenient truth, BMW motorcycle manufacturing quality control and manufacturing tolorances" by Alfred GorE Neuman.

Everything said has some merit. Its 39 degrees and 10 percent chance of rain, I'm going riding.

Duh,

sorry I can't tell U exactly what my mechanic said. Something about the assembly.

Sorry dude. You'll never know. Cuz I forgot.
SmileWavy

Joe, how well balanced do you think the clutch disc is? When I get back to Das Bikehaus, I'm going put the old clutch disc that i have and see how it does on the wheel balancer.

BMW (or their supplier), mark the spring,pressure plate, and clutch cover with a paint mark. Usually white. These marks are supposed to be 120 degrees from each other. tjs

The very 1st 2002 R1150RT's were the most frequent model for clutch failure in the shop I worked at. Usually within 20K. tjs

I could I went for a quick 80 mile romp Sunday afternoon and had two different incidents; the first happened running about 60 in 4th or 5th, when I changed directions in a turn the bike felt like it missed. I was low on fuel, but the light hadn't come on yet, so I hit the next station and filled up. About 30 miles later, going a steady 65 on a straight stretch of road in 5th, there was a 1/4 second where the the bike sounded/felt like it hit a neutral. I rode very gingerly home and hope to pull the starter this weekend.

I hope I'm not willing this thing to fail.

A bunch of us have had the bike pop into a "false neutral" from 5th (or perhaps 6th) while we're cruising around - if you don't catch it with the clutch, it will then go back into gear most of the time. My pet theory is that the ECU has a software glitch that causes it to go AWOL for a instant, interrupting power and hiccuping the tranny into a weird neutral.

In any event, it happened to my bike perhaps five times in 55K miles with no rhyme or reason and seemed to diminish with miles - did not happen in last 20K or so.

The symptoms of input shaft spline failure are typically not subtle nor progressive - the bike suddenly loses thrust and won't go from this point forward, accompanied by mechanical noises.

Your two incidents may be indicative of a problem (or problems), but I doubt it is THIS problem.

- Mark

Thank god for this forum/thread! :lol:

I just had this happen to me on my way home, and not for the first time. Cruising in 6th gear around 70mph and for about 1/4 second, it felt like the clutch let go and then caught again, of course causing a bit of a lurch forward.

The rest of my ride home was me convincing myself I need to hurry up and trade this bike in before the input shaft finally fails and I'm due a huge repair/parts bill.

However, it sounds like it's not related at all...bike just kinda fell out of gear, I guess. Very odd. I've had it happen thrice in the past 4-5 months, each one has gotten progressively more severe (longer duration of no power to the wheel)

Your problem reads like ignition cut out.

Could be, tough to really say. I mean, the engine doesn't sputter or anything, it just speeds up as the connection to the rear wheel is lost momentarily.

So, after pulling the starter how do you tell if the splines are OK? I pulled my starter today to have a look at the splines and clean the starter. I can only see about 1/8 inch of the splines and the clutch hub. Nothing looks chewed up, rusty, oily or heat scorched. My bike has 35k on it.
Last weekend I helped my buddy pull the transmission on his R1150R and there is a good inch or so that I know I can't see. At 40k his splines look like new, he blew the rear main seal overfilling the crankcase and ruined the clutch. His slave cylinder leaked too, so we need to run it to the dealer to replace the seals. My slave cylinder failed, bad bearing - no leak, at 20k I'm replacing the current one at 40k.

The surest sign that you are about to have a spline failure the a slight tug at the pocket your wallet is in.

Ah, yet another quality post....

Hi Doug,

Pull in the clutch lever and tie it off. Then, looking through the starter hole, find the edge of the clutch disk. Using a small tool of some sort rotate the clutch disk back and forth as you look into the slot at the splines. The splines and disk should move in unison. If the disk can move on the splines you have trouble.

If you have a problem you can measure the play at the edge of the disk. Once it gets to a quarter inch I'd be seriously shopping for a used known-good transmission.

Just learning from another bull$hit artist. SmileWavy

Thanks Jim, I'll pull the starter again and see what I've got this weekend.

The difference being that I am informing people of upcoming, interesting activities... and you are just posting your usual, idiotic stuff...

Carry on.

You going surfing is interesting? Very interesting to whom? Your ego.SmileWavy At the end of the day it's all about you, isn't it Signit 98. You snipe even the most innocent of posts. Didn't you get enough attention from your teachers in school. Do me a favor and add 1%er to you ignore list. But, you can't do that because then you wouldn't be able to get you groupies to pay attention to you. Happy New Year a$$ whole.

Jim,

Should there be any play? Looking at the hub while moving the clutch disk back and forth there is a bit of play. The total movement on the edge of the disk is less than an 1/8th of an inch. It shifts like butter, no problems downshifting or up shifting.

Here's a video of the play:
Clutch Play 12 30 12 - YouTube

Thanks,
Doug

The bad ones I've seen have had significantly more play than that. That could be normal wear and tear, or it could be a very slowly developing problem. IMO that's not gonna grenade any time soon. I'd button it back up and check it again in 10K miles.

Thanks Jim, I appreciate the help!

As the originator of this thread I would like to say that the best input I got from it was a direct message (don't remember from whom) that said, and I'm paraphrasing "...stop reading the forums and just ride it..." I did that and never had any issues. At the first major service I had TjS look at it and he had no concerns. At least I don't think he did as he bought the bike from me a few months later.

I'm glad it worked out for you, but I don't think that's good advice. Spline failures are not rare. A spline failure will stop you dead in your tracks, and leave you there until you or someone else splits the bike in half and installs a new transmission and clutch. The problem is easy to discern through a simple check. IMO you'd be crazy to plan any type of long-distance adventure until you know the condition of your splines.

That being said, I completely understand your position. It's the dichotomy of BMW ownership. You either get a good one or a bad one. A good one will last hundreds of thousands of miles, and will be a life-long companion. A bad one will cost you multi-thousands of dollars every 30K miles. The owners of bad ones can't believe they paid money for that pile of crap. The owners of good ones can't understand what all the fuss is about.

remember Jim, there appear to be 2 distinct failure modes.
#one is from lack of lube (factory or later).. those fails typically occur in the 70-90K range.
#two is from a trans/engine misalignment, and that is the fail that keeps repeating itself every 30K or so if left uncorrected.
#1 does not require a new trans, just a new input shaft.

A lot of smart people agree with you on that. I'm not entirely sold. I'm in the "some are really misaligned, and others are slightly misaligned" camp.

My reasoning is this: Many, many people have gone over well over 100K without looking at the splines. Many others have broken the bike in two, only to report that "the splines were really dry, but there was no damage at all." That wouldn't happen if lubrication, or lack thereof, was the cuplrit.

That being said, I sure as hell lubed mine when i put it back together. Both times. I'm not sure it helps, but it can't hurt.

Hey, I seem to remember yours failed around 70K. How many miles do you have now. Have you checked for play recently? I'm mildly curious is all.

failed at 71K. At 95K now. had starter motor out for nose cleaning at start of season, things looked good at that point.

Thanks. I hope it keeps working for you.

Bought mine used with 54,000 miles. Just pulled it apart and the splines were very dry, a little rusty, and worn on both sides of the spline teeth. I suppose it would have worked for another 20,000 miles before it failed completely. No real noise or problems with it. I do have a whirrr-click sound down by my right foot pulling out in first gear. Everything from the shaft back seems fine and has no play or wear. The transmision ouput shaft bearing seems to have a little play so I'll look at that when I get inside. Maybe the "whirrr-click" noise is meant to be there...

that clicking noise is most likely the front U joint getting ready to fail

Thanks Mrmerlin; I'll take a closer look at that. My most current theory was that the clutch disk was chattering on its' way to full engagement although I didn't feel any slippage. Currently got the transmission mostly apart. Need better heat to get the bearings to release from the case half. Woodstove and heat gun are the current plan.

Clutch hub spacer kit
 

..

Looks good, keep us up to date. Is this a one off or might you sell these?

..

really if you can swing it you should just sell the modified clutch as new complete
once you have the tools it wouldn't take long to do them and most people
would be buying a new clutch anyway,

and I think someone is already doing something similar

Any issue with balance or getting the disc centered to the spacer?

Measurements on the spacer are within 0.05mm of the original hub measurements. Holes on the spacer are at the same position as the ones on the hub.