IMS Early Warning Device

[Tennessee911]

Anybody want to discuss Raby's metal detection device?

[Wayne 962]

I've heard through the grapevine about it. Sounds like a neat device if it can be manufactured relatively inexpensively. Although Jake has been very secretive on what he's doing, if I were to build a device like this, I would simply tap a small monitoring computer into the OBD port on the car. This box would monitor camshaft deviation over time (I talked about how camshaft deviations were an indicator of failure of the shaft). When monitoring and tracking this information over time, you can see changes and disruptions, both from the normal operation of the car, and also from the normal specs that the car should have. In other words, if the deviations match certain patterns of failure, it could alert you. Or, if the device shows that your car's cam timing is changing over time (it really shouldn't), then that would toss up an alert as well.

All of this can be done with an OBD2 scanner, but I think having a neat little warning system would be very user friendly.

-Wayne

[JFP in PA]

Wayne, I just read the article on the Guardian, and it is a metals particulate sensor that collects ferrous metal using magnets and then triggers when the accumulation level meets a predetermined level. Common military aircraft stuff, which is Jake’s background.

I have to agree with the comment in the article where it notes that by the time you see the cam deviation values go out of wack, the engine is already full of metal. We have only “caught” a couple of M96/97 engines with the cam deviation technique, and they were full of metal crud in the sump and oil filter. I have heard similar stories from others than have observed the same thing. Jake’s idea is to catch the metal build up quickly and early in real time, before the engines have so much metal running around in them that the IMS bearing becomes the least of your worries…………..

[ronster]

Wouldn't camshaft deviations cause recognizable symptoms in a motor without the need for a sensor?

[JFP in PA]

Not necessarily. They have been reported being found quite by accident on cars with no codes or other apparent issues. On the couple we have seen, that was also the case; no codes or symptoms. This “lack of warning” has always been the issue with IMS failures.

To Jake’s credit, by the time you see cam deviation values “dancing”, the engine is already circulating oil full of metal particles; his approach would have sensed this sooner, before the circulating metal caused collateral damage.

[J Richard]

This is well tested and dependable technology, stolen from aviation. Helicopters and some airplanes use chip detectors in highly critical parts such as rotor gearboxes and transmissions. Little light goes off, its time to set it down asap...

[intakexhaust]

No fancy sensor needed here and doubt it would give a warning in time after this instant snap.

[thstone]

How would a metal sensor have helped here?

Rubber sealant gunk clogged oil pickup; lack of oil = engine failure. (my friends car)

[Wayne 962]

Sounds like a cool little device. Can't wait to get it into the catalog!

-Wayne

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by thstone

How would a metal sensor have helped here?

Rubber sealant gunk clogged oil pickup; lack of oil = engine failure. (my friends car)

The sensor is not a cure for cancer, the recession, or unemployment. It would not benefit you if your crank snapped, your oil sump cover fell off, or if you hit a tree. But it does address most of the more common engine failure modes, all of which generate ferrous debris in significant quantities before the engine blows……..

And in the case of your friend’s car, it would have seen the bearing backing materials in the oil.

[ronster]

I'm continuing my questions out of curiosity. Couldn't there be metal particles in the oil from other parts wearing and not necessarily the IMS or is the IMS composed of a different alloy that this sensor detects? If one has installed the LN IMS will this sensor detect ceramic particles?

[JFP in PA]

No, it only sees ferrous particulates. But as most of the failure types emit ferrous materials, it would see all of them early on. The LN update has ceramic hybrid materials, backed up by steel structure, so if the LN unit did begin to go, it should also generate ferrous particulates. To date, however, I am unaware of any reported LN upgrade failures.

[thstone]

JFP: "And in the case of your friend’s car, it would have seen the bearing backing materials in the oil."


Can you explain further? What "bearing backing materials"? The IMS did not fail in this engine and was in perfect condition.

[JFP in PA]

The bearings shells are layers of different metals laminated together to form the shell. Some of the backing materials are partially ferrous and can be picked up by a magnet.

[e-tek]

I wonder how much metal is required to trigger the sensor? Also, would this device be any better than changing and opening the filter (with a magnetic sleeve even) at earlier intervals (say 1000kms) ? Or having a magnetic oil drain plug?
I've done a few High Perf engines and opening oil filters becomes common practice on them - looks like it should with these too!

www.E-tekRestorations.com

[msk914]

I have a question about the IMS and 2006-2008 (and some 2005) engines: So you buy the Guardian or you check manually more often and you see metal in the oil. In an early Boxster, you replace the IMS, let's say with clutch, etc it costs $2-3k. How much does the cost go up to open the engine and replace the IMS in the 987 (up to 2008)? Any ideas? Probably not a typical job, since once the IMS goes (before the Guardian) you would need to be very lucky to catch it early enough (or other failures).

I've been reading this and other forums, looking for a boxster project car, and when you check the carfax, which I know are not perfect, however: So many of the cars which have (what look like complete) service histories have oil changes only at 15k miles. Especially what appear to be leases. I own several cars now, none of them have 15k service intervals. (even if they did, I would change oil no later than 5k). This 15k service interval seems insane to me.

Mark

[JFP in PA]

Realistically, you are looking at the cost of a total engine rebuild. Yes, you could take apart a running engine and only replace the “must have” bits, but why would you? For only a relatively “small” additional investment, you would end up with a brand new, and considerably more bullet resistant (there is no bullet proof in these things) engine.

What would this cost? That depends upon who is doing the rebuild, but you would be looking at something north of $7-8K to do it right. Why so much? Start adding up the cost of just the bits you need to replace (the IMS shaft, rings, bearings, oil pump and drive, tensioners, pads, possibly multiple chains, etc. etc……..) and you have several thousand dollars in parts sitting in a pile on the floor. Now you need A.) Someone that knows how to do this; and B.) Somewhere in the neighborhood of $8-10K in tools and fixtures to do it with (the fixture just to install the rear main seal alone cost around $500). So the rest consists of knowledge and labor costs. This is why Porsche gets over $17K for a factory rebuilt motor, plus a core charge of nearly $10K if you do not have a “viable” core to give to them in return. And if you think that is either ridiculous or scary, try pricing an OEM rebuilt turbo motor.

As in most other things, there is no such thing as a “free lunch”………

[mikefocke]

e-tec...you really going to have the discipline to drop the drain plug or filter every 625 miles?

And no one I know has ever said exactly what the interval is between the beginning of detectable symptoms and the total failure point. We do know of at least one case where the car was on its trip to get the oil changed and filter checked when it blew.

We do know of several stories of people where the detector detected and at least one case where the detector was ignored and the IMS failed taking the engine with it. Considering there are only about 500 installed, that isn't a bad credibility history.

[e-tek]

Like many, I like to hedge my bets....
I know Porsche doesn't say how many of these things have let go, but does anyone even have a GUESS as to a percentage of say 1999-2009 cars that had this issue? Is it 1/1000 or10/1000, or is it even higher?
2nd question - what's the cost of the IMS detector system and what would be the PARTS cost of the IMS, clutch and gasket set?


www.E-tekRestorations.com

[howe00]

Why would anyone think the Guardian Ims "time interval for detection" would be better than an oil filter check? The former has to collect particles totally at random in the sump, the latter collects ALL OIL particles before going though the engine.