I need to replace my LN upgraded IMS Bearing

[Armagon]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Just as I never understood why you wouldn't want an expert doing the job.

I used OEM parts in maintaining mine and even published tables of equivalent parts so others could too. But those were for things external to the engine and easily replaced by someone with a will and a few tools. Didn't need a clean room and hundreds of dollars worth of tools.

Good luck, let us know how it went in a couple of years when you have 40k more on the car.

How does an expert becomes an expert ? By experimenting ? I'm french to say that, but seems like the 2 words are from the same familly.

LN engineering doesn't fabricate bearings. They chose an application that applies to this case. The bearing, i pay 300$, if i bough many (more than 4) i would have paid 250$. Now with a machined flange and some research, as a business man, i wouldn't have a problem with selling it 650$.

It is just a motor with an engineering issue. The thing is that because it is written PORSCHE on it, everyone looks at it with big eyes. It's only a bearing #6402DU17 nothing more.
The failure happens on cars that are not driven enough in time and RPM.

An industrial ceramic hybrid bearing greased and sealed for life is the solution. Why to pay 650 ? and to pay 250$ for tools ? The bearing is 300$ that's allready enough. I even believe that this is THE bearing that they use. It took me 30 min to figure out how to make my own tool and 15 more to take out the bearing. I don't need to study the thing for 3 years to get it done properly.

When i get it monday, i will take pictures and post it here to get some insights.

And also, if it works on my engine, i don'T see why it won't work on 100 more. Engine are all designed the same. It's not a lunar exploration with hazardous solar winds. It's a shaft that revs to 7000 rpm in a controlled environment.

[thom4782]

The gap between theory and the real world can be enormous.

For me, I'm placing my bet with the guys who have thousands of their bearings installed in cars on the street with virtually no failures. I don't care if it costs me a couple of hundred more. I'm buying peace of mind for my 3.2L engine with demonstrated technology.

[feelyx]

Originally Posted by Armagon

How does an expert becomes an expert ? By experimenting ? I'm french to say that, but seems like the 2 words are from the same familly.

LN engineering doesn't fabricate bearings. They chose an application that applies to this case. The bearing, i pay 300$, if i bough many (more than 4) i would have paid 250$. Now with a machined flange and some research, as a business man, i wouldn't have a problem with selling it 650$.

It is just a motor with an engineering issue. The thing is that because it is written PORSCHE on it, everyone looks at it with big eyes. It's only a bearing #6402DU17 nothing more.
The failure happens on cars that are not driven enough in time and RPM.

An industrial ceramic hybrid bearing greased and sealed for life is the solution. Why to pay 650 ? and to pay 250$ for tools ? The bearing is 300$ that's allready enough. I even believe that this is THE bearing that they use. It took me 30 min to figure out how to make my own tool and 15 more to take out the bearing. I don't need to study the thing for 3 years to get it done properly.

When i get it monday, i will take pictures and post it here to get some insights.

And also, if it works on my engine, i don'T see why it won't work on 100 more. Engine are all designed the same. It's not a lunar exploration with hazardous solar winds. It's a shaft that revs to 7000 rpm in a controlled environment.

Its not that the part used was a poor choice.... it was where they located it, (in the shaft) that was the poor choice...
the oil starts seeping in/out at around 230/240F, at any rpm. Low useage cars have low mileage, its more of a time thing, not mileage

[hms1]

Ceramic Ball Bearings: VXB.com Ball Bearings
This is a link to VXB that carriers a full assortment of bearing.

[Armagon]

Here's he bearing i bought in my local bearing supplier for 300 CAD





I ran the car for 2000 km since and everything is fine still, i doubt that this will not work. It is a ceramic hybrid bearing tha is made to endure much more stress, load, temperature and rpm.
I will keep you updated if anything happens.

Enjoy !

Max

[mikefocke]

I wish you good luck (and mean that in a positive tone, not a negative one). Not everyone can figure out how to do the replacement and I'll wager you had a peek at some of the online instructions for help but still impressive that you did the replacement without specialized tools. Do come back in 30k and tell us how things are working for you.

[qstoria]

Very interesting thread on one of the most important and most talked about issues of M96 ownership.

As a one year owner of an 04 Boxster S I can definitely say that it was a no brainer for me to go with the LN engineering bearing on the day I bought the car. I had done my homework for over a year before buying the car so I knew the risks involved with the IMS etc.

The one thing that I find surprising about this thread is that people are still prepared to save a couple of hundred bucks and buy a bearing that is not from LN but allegedly is cut from the same cloth. We are talking what, a $300 saving? I believe that is almost as risky as not replacing the bearing at all in some ways.

LN did the hard yards with the R&D for several years to bring the first reputable solution to this problem which I think in many ways has probably prevented the value of these cars from sliding right off the bottom of the scale so for people now to look at a generic version of the same bearing LN offer seems a little odd to me!

[Armagon]

Originally Posted by qstoria

Very interesting thread on one of the most important and most talked about issues of M96 ownership.

As a one year owner of an 04 Boxster S I can definitely say that it was a no brainer for me to go with the LN engineering bearing on the day I bought the car. I had done my homework for over a year before buying the car so I knew the risks involved with the IMS etc.

The one thing that I find surprising about this thread is that people are still prepared to save a couple of hundred bucks and buy a bearing that is not from LN but allegedly is cut from the same cloth. We are talking what, a $300 saving? I believe that is almost as risky as not replacing the bearing at all in some ways.

LN did the hard yards with the R&D for several years to bring the first reputable solution to this problem which I think in many ways has probably prevented the value of these cars from sliding right off the bottom of the scale so for people now to look at a generic version of the same bearing LN offer seems a little odd to me!

Well i understand your point of view but i'll expose you mine.
The bearing that is in the car from the manufacturer is a 15$ bearing #6204DU17.

Considering this, it means that the IMS bearing allready in place from the porsche factory that has allready less than 10% chances of failing is a 15$ bearing.

I conclude that if a install there a hybrid ceramic (plane turbine) bearing that can endure much more stress, heat and rpm will have less chances of failing than the oem one.

By the way, my car that has now 75 000 km and is a 2002 still had a 15$ bearing in good condition. I replaced it by prevention.

LN engineering said that they tried many bearings and found one that did not fail blablabla.... I'm curious what they had to do to make other bearings fail. I don't believe that. They just did like me and stopped a little bit to think about it and came with the conclusion that a hybrid ceramic bearing will perfectly work there. They don't make bearings, they just chose one for the application. And still you have to consider that the 15$ bearing could last 200 000 km there but in some case of unusual use, it can wear out.

I operate a repair shop specialized in european cars and this way of thinking drove me to success ever since.

So i wish myself good luck and will keep you updated if anything happens :-)

Maxime Routhier

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Armagon

Well i understand your point of view but i'll expose you mine.
The bearing that is in the car from the manufacturer is a 15$ bearing #6204DU17.

Considering this, it means that the IMS bearing allready in place from the porsche factory that has allready less than 10% chances of failing is a 15$ bearing.

I conclude that if a install there a hybrid ceramic (plane turbine) bearing that can endure much more stress, heat and rpm will have less chances of failing than the oem one.

By the way, my car that has now 75 000 km and is a 2002 still had a 15$ bearing in good condition. I replaced it by prevention.

LN engineering said that they tried many bearings and found one that did not fail blablabla.... I'm curious what they had to do to make other bearings fail. I don't believe that. They just did like me and stopped a little bit to think about it and came with the conclusion that a hybrid ceramic bearing will perfectly work there. They don't make bearings, they just chose one for the application. And still you have to consider that the 15$ bearing could last 200 000 km there but in some case of unusual use, it can wear out.

I operate a repair shop specialized in european cars and this way of thinking drove me to success ever since.

So i wish myself good luck and will keep you updated if anything happens :-)

Maxime Routhier

Before you start to criticize LN, just be aware that they brought in a bearing design engineer to help on the selection process, and then ran prototypes in engines until they failed at Jake Raby's shop.....................

[thom4782]

Acorn Bearings shows SKF's suggested list price for the bearing in the picture as 830.71. Not sure if its US dollars or British pounds. There must be huge discounts out there...just wondering

[howe00]

Agree with Max 100% its just a bearing, if you buy a reputable brand eg FAG, SKF, NACHI, etc, it will make no difference, there are a lot of other variables than can influence a bearings life. If you operate at high temps no sealed bearing will last.

[thom4782]

It doesn't matter if it's "just a bearing." Seal degradation seems to be the root cause of IMS bearing failures. So if you buy a sealed bearing from a reputable supplier and install it, you still face the same problem - inadequate lubrication if the seal degrades. The LN Retrofit bearing addresses this failure mode by providing an unsealed unit that is lubricated adequately by splash oil.

[mikefocke]

From time to time I've talked to Jake, Charles and Ed by phone and email over a 5+ year period. The discussions originated before they were busy and long before there were even a dozen of the now thousands of engines saved by any IMS replacement procedure. They told me when they broke engines testing. They disassembled bearings mid-engine-life to inspect and measure them. They measured oil flow pressures and volumes both at the bearing and at the source before and after. They pulled apart motors that had run a few years and more than a few real-world miles to take measurements. One of their wife's cars was a rolling testbed. They raced their experiments and drove em between home and work. They drove em between the south and the north in all seasons. They asked people with problems to return bearings to them for analysis. They willingly shared with me their findings and gave me permission to publish some of them. They scrapped ideas as not working well enough after measurement. Some ideas were years in the perfecting because their first experiment didn't work so well or caused problems in other areas. Or distribution changes had to occur as experience with first-time installers taught them that the success rate wasn't high enough.

I also talked to (or at least tried to) initiate discussions with the other purveyors of bearing replacements. Listed and linked to them all on my web site. Both US and other continents. Bet you didn't know there is a UK fix and a Spanish one that are different from the US offered ones.

Why was I interested? Well it started when I got tired of answering "Buying a Boxster" questions on the forums individually and wrote a long article on the subject I could link to. Then I started to assemble multiple other pages that would answer commonly asked questions. One of which is "what are the problems". And so I tried to understand ....

[Armagon]

Originally Posted by thom4782

Acorn Bearings shows SKF's suggested list price for the bearing in the picture as 830.71. Not sure if its US dollars or British pounds. There must be huge discounts out there...just wondering

I paid 300 CAD $ for mine and it was a special order from USA on which i paid transport, so they should be cheaper IN USA.