ADR Compliance experience - rear seat belts

[percy]

Have imported a 1988 911 Cabrio, and went to get the engineering certification today. The consulting automotive engineer referred me to the Technical Service branch of the licensing authorities here in Perth.
Quite some discussion resulted from the layout of the lap and sash seat belts fitted to the rear. (These were on the vehicle as imported - there was no special advisory in the UK MOT).
The criticism of the rear belts is that the cabrio roof, when opened, pushes the sash belt down behind the back of the rear seat. This means that the anchor point is effectively (and mechanically) moved from the rear of the parcel shelf (the actual mounting point) to the point where is is pushed down behind the rear seat. It is acceptable in some cases to anchor the sash behind the rear seat, but not on something as small and flimsy as the rear seats on a 911!
The upshot of this is a recommendation (by the engineering folks) to fit only lap belts in the rear. This will be covered by a form indicating a variance to ADR.
So, questions to fellow Australian Pelicans
is your cabrio licensed as a 2 seater or 4 seater ?
any alternative anchor points used for rear seat belts -- photos ?
any photos of Aust-complianced 3.2 Carrera Cabrios with rear lap & sash ?

Many thanks
Keith

[billjam]

Keith,
From your explanation, I can't visualise how your belts are being affected by the cabrio roof, but I would assume that the top belt mount is on the parcel shelf the same as a coupe.
First pic shows the coupe rear parcel shelf mounted belts and the one below shows the retractable lap belts that you would have to use if you have to change to this type.
I have changed several cars from the lap type to later lap-sash type specifically to pass inspection, so if you want to see what the lap belts look like, drop me a message, I have a couple of sets (v cheap).

[percy]

Hi Bill
Mount points look to be the same, on the rear parcel shelf - mine is shown here with trim cover removed (and my new "child seat restraint points").
Second photo shows neat looking lap and sash combo, currently in place.
Third shows the cabrio frame folding into the area behind the seats, hence the concern that the original anchor point is not actually used.
I picked up some generic lap-only belts this afternoon, however, they look to be quite long, and will be a messy fit.
Apparently I am not required to have the retractable version.

[percy]

Bill
Sent you PM

[Slocs]

Keith, I'm in the process of importing my '86 Cabrio and have run across the same problem.

The solution suggested to me was to use removable lap sash belts. This sounds a little unusual, but effectively it allows you to thread the sash part through the rear window zipper when the roof is down. This means the mechanical anchor point is still on the parcel shelf.

QuickfitSBS in the UK have supplied the belts for 95 odd pounds.

I've attached some images of how this works. Unfortunately I still think it fails ADR4D as they are removeable, and are static, but if you can get this signed off as a variance you'll end up with a safer outcome.

Rgds

Rob

[percy]

Thanks Rob
I'll have to have another look at mine tonight when I get home -- to see if this is plausible.
The Engineering Section guys were not too upset about "lap only" belts -- it was actually their suggestion ( I didn't even know you could get removeable belts).
I am told however, that I cannot carry babies in capsules, or young children in booster seats in the rear of the vehicle -- this is no great loss considering I have neither. It does however, make my recently fitted "child seat restraint points" illustrated in the first photo, somewhat superfluous.
I'm off to a local seat belt supplier to see what I can get
Keith
Nice ride -- Baltic Blue ?

[Slocs]

Keith, those are the photos supplied by Quickfit. Mine's actually Grand Prix white with black leather.

Regarding your other question, I understand that all Aus delivered cabs were 2 seat only with the rear seats actually removed.

With your car were there any particular compliance issues you can give me a heads up on?

Thanks

Rob

[percy]

Rob
I'd heard that some Aust cars were registered as two-seaters, but didn't know thay actually had the rears removed.
I'm in Perth, so I have to get an independent Engineers Certification, before I can put the car over the pits for inspection prior to WA licensing.
Nothing else came up on the report, however, I'll scan a copy and send it, so you know what they are looking out for
Keith

[Mike1987cabrio]

I ahve just imported a 1987 Carrera S Cabrio and am facing the task of getting ADR compliance. I would be very interested to get info on the outcome of Percy's experience. What was the solution that was accepted by the inspectors?

I will check my own vehicle but I am pretty sure it only has sash belts at the moment.

Mike

[JET951]

Hi Keith , the following is only what came from Germany( new Porsche's) to comply with ADR's in Australia in regards to cabrio's when I was working at a Porsche Dealer in Sydney from 1977 to 1993 as a Porsche technician .

Year } 1983 = first year type of the 911 factory cabrio , the 1983 year types imported by Porsche Cars Australia actually had rear seats ( Factory ) and lap belts , just like the UK version , however somewhere through 1983 someone twigged that the ADR's ( Australian Design Rules) actually does not allow rear seats where there was only lap belts , so the 1983 year type slipped in between the gaps untill this realization hit the fan .

Years } 1984 - 1989 = The factory cabrio( narrow & wide body) only came into Australia with no rear seats and no seat belts , in its place they had a rear parcel shelf , which had two glove boxes built into it .

years } 1989 - 1991 = 944S2 cabro , same applies , no rear seat , just a parcel shelf

Years }1992 - 1995 = 968 cabrio , same as above

Years } 1990 - 1994 = 964 ( 911) cabrio , same applies

Years } 1995 > = 993 ( 911) rear seat , but mainly the centre section completely redesigned very heavily ( literally) with a massive buttress that allows the retractable rear seat belts ( redesigned ) to mount to the massive centre buttress , so now the engineering has been done properly to allow a much safer design , heavy but very well done .

Regards
Bruce Buchanan
Buchanan Automotive

[percy]

Mike
I received an exemption certificate from ADR 4/00 (seat belts), which specifies that lap-only type belts are acceptable in the rear of my vehicle. As per the initial post, this was suggested by the ADR certifying engineer, and agreed to by the Engineering Section of the Western Australian licensing authorities.
I have a scan of my Engineer's Report, if you want a copy for reference.

I had a set of rear lap belts (very short !) custom made here in Perth, from an appropriately certified source.
When the car went over the pits for local licensing, I had to provide the exemption documentation and the ADR report, and explain the details behind the decision, but there was no drama.
So, after all this, it looks like I have a 4-seat cabrio, which can be safely used by two people in the front (with legs), and two people in the rear (without)

Bruce
Thanks for the detailed version of what had been explained to me by my local Porsche Master Tech. He actually showed me a 1995 car in the workshop, and I heed your comments about the massive centre buttress !

[Slocs]

Keith, I've sent you a pm regarding your engineers report.

Thanks

Rob

[bzhnky]

Hi Percy, was wondering about the exemption certificate you got for your rear seat belts. My wife's 1991 500SL was imported from HK in 2007 and had to have these removed. Having looked at ADR 5/01, my interpretation is that although the norm is lap/sash belts for both rear seats, there is an exception to the rule where only lap belts are required if the seat "is designed to provide adjustment for conversion of occupant space to luggage or goods space". Section 5.2.4.3.2. refers. Do you know if this was the basis for the exception you got for your rear lap belts?

[dj1]

Originally Posted by Mike1987cabrio

I ahve just imported a 1987 Carrera S Cabrio and am facing the task of getting ADR compliance. I would be very interested to get info on the outcome of Percy's experience. What was the solution that was accepted by the inspectors?

I will check my own vehicle but I am pretty sure it only has sash belts at the moment.

Mike

Mike,

For WA I can give you the info for the required documents regarding exemption for the rear belts unless Keith (Percy) has spoken to you. My email address for any questions is cdf_compliance@optusnet.com.au this can also cover Child Restraints, they are both exempt as they do not meet the criteria to pass the ADR's, this is of course at no cost being so basic.

For other peoples interest this should be for most Coupe's and Cabrio 911's all around Australia, being my first post Keith knows I am a RAW here in Perth and just sorted this for a mates 1987 911 I am signing off for the pits.

bzhnky the exemtion is in relation to line the belt travels and what is supporting it, under ADR 5 but a different clause

[strikee]

I have an 85 targa shipped from the UK. Ive read countless threads and searched for a suitable retractable option but Im stumped. As you can see from the picture the bolt hole sits very near the parcel edge, so the inertia reel will protrude too far into the cabin.

Im thinking I might go for three point sash / lap but non-retractable.

Will this get through NSW compliance?

Cheers
Ed.

[billjam]

Originally Posted by strikee

Im thinking I might go for three point sash / lap but non-retractable.

Will this get through NSW compliance?

Ed.

It won't pass in WA - must be retractable - I think it is an ADR thing, so same rules would apply in NSW.

[billjam]

The belts you need look like this ...



Not the best picture, but you get the idea. It's important to get all the bolts and spacers if possible. I paid $145 for these 964 belts from this thread. I also tried to buy the plastic guides in this thread but no luck at the time. I ended up buying a whole parcel shelf panel from the guy who sold me the belts. I shipped it with other parts in a container with cars, so size of panel wasn't an issue. Feel free to use any of my pictures in ads if you want.

[strikee]

Bill, yes, I can see those are exactly the ones I need. With the greater percentage of the retractable section behind the bolt hole. I have posted in the WTB as suggested.

Thanks so much for your help.

Ed.

[Rai]

Hi All

I have a 911 Targa 1987 M491 UK delivered car.

There are after market retractable belts fitted in the rear. mounted in the parcel shelf. I would like original Porsche belts but can you fit retractable belts in a Targa under the parcel shelf given that there is very little room? Did Porsche fit retractable belts in late 80's targas?

Does some one have a photo of how an original rear belt is fitted and if retractable?

Any assistance greatly appreciated.

Rai

[vince_aust]

Guys,

I have a UK import wide body Targa (87) and its fitted with retractable seatbelts. The entire assembly fits under the parcel shelf. Photos attached - sorry I don't currently have photos of parcel shelf removed