Losing the Arms Race

[Jeff Higgins]

Sigh... a good buddy of mine and I took part in our local PCA chapter's track day yesterday at Pacific Raceways. We have both been doing this for many, many years at this point, and we both feel we have rather capable early cars (his is a '71 with coil over suspension on all four corners, Turbo brakes, a Chris Powel (former Bayside Racing engine builder) built 2.8 long stroke running a Varioram intake, etc.). We have both noticed, however, that it has gotten very much more difficult to keep up with the modern cars that make up the majority of the entrants in these events. We are spending far too much time with our arms out the window, pointing by faster cars, and very rarely getting a point by from anyone. Maybe the time has come...

We really had no trouble hanging with the 996 and 997 series cars. Then the 991's came along and it got noticeably more difficult, if not impossible. The 991.2's have well and truly buried it for us. That, and even in the "B" group in which we run, fully half the field are GT3's, with the other half a mix of turbos and just a few "standard" 991's. These are seriously fast cars. Perhaps more importantly, they have some very sophisticated "nannies" that are making even very average drivers look like Patrick Long. There is just no keeping up anymore. We are, essentially, just in the way.

Guys who were doing this in those years tell me this is much like what happened at the end of the 356's run as track day cars. As 911's got faster and faster, the poor little 356's became just moving chicanes for the 911 drivers. Kind of an annoyance, really. Well, I feel that we are now there. At least as far as running with the PCA. There are some local clubs that continue to attract more of a mix of cars, and a lot more in the way of older cars. They just don't run nearly as often, so it makes it kind of hard to remain "current".

I guess I'm not sure where to go from here. I still love doing track days. I'm not sure I would have as much fun in a new car, much less one with all of the "nannies". I can very much see, at this point, being more or less pushed out of our local PAC days. That makes me very sad...

[tabs]

I am disappointed in this Thread. Classic case of bait and switch

[onewhippedpuppy]

Jeff what about some variety of vintage racing? Seems like your cars would definitely qualify, and the competition would probably be more on par.

Jeff--
One of my columns in 911 & PW a couple years ago was on just this subject--called "Arms Race" in fact. Great minds and all that. It's only too true that our air-cooled cars are now roadblocks at PCA events. I think it would be very cool to have a "classic" run group for pre-nanny cars.

[Eric at Pelican Parts]

I'd check out Sportscar Vintage Racing Association or Vintage Auto Racing Association. It'd definitely be more fun and enjoyable doing close quarters racing rather than getting your doors blown off and pointing by all the modern cars.

Your local group doesn't do separate run groups for older cars?

[aschen]

Yes this is the natural circle of automotive enthusiast life I think

Originally Posted by Eric at Pelican Parts

I'd check out Sportscar Vintage Racing Association or Vintage Auto Racing Association. It'd definitely be more fun and enjoyable doing close quarters racing rather than getting your doors blown off and pointing by all the modern cars.

Your local group doesn't do separate run groups for older cars?

None of the local clubs here seem to do it. Alfa Club has trackdays, but they rarely have any Alfas.

[onewhippedpuppy]

An aside, but it’s crazy how much faster modern cars have become. Many economy cars can smoke a typical older 911 around the track.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Perhaps more importantly, they have some very sophisticated "nannies" that are making even very average drivers look like Patrick Long.

The 991 is the first car I have ever driven, that I never once thought about turning the stability control off.

It just really was that good, it felt like magic. A piece of gravel on the road and it just put a partial lift on the tire it was the side of for a tiny moment, etc. It was spider sense.

[masraum]

Take it to the streets, dude. Plenty of civics that are happy to race down main street between 2 strip centers using traffic to make the route "twisty"!

[Eric at Pelican Parts]

Originally Posted by madcorgi

None of the local clubs here seem to do it. Alfa Club has trackdays, but they rarely have any Alfas.

Color me surprised! Do you guys just have open track days from start to finish?

I've hosted a few 40-50 car track days with a few friends and we've always had run groups that were separated by car eras and driver level... thought it was pretty common but I guess not.

[reachme]

I used to enjoy slot car racing with my brother in our basement in the late 70's. He was four years older but I could beat him half the time. You needed skill to take a corner fast without spinning, come over a hill slow so you dont jump out of the slot.
Then he got a paper route and got some money. He brought home a new kind of car with "G-Force". If I remember correctly it had magnets in the bottom of the car to grip onto the steel pickup tracks.

With that car he could go at full speed all race and never spin out, never lose the track. He always won after that, I got bored racing and he got bored winning and we both soon stopped. Same thing happened a few years later with paintball. Technology wins in the end.

[Zeke]

I don't thing W2W racing is the answer. Lots of potential for damage. Maybe time trials. Open practice in the morning (no change from the present problem) and some individual runs in the afternoon when you can let it all hang out and not worry about catching a car or a car catching you.

Originally Posted by Eric at Pelican Parts

Color me surprised! Do you guys just have open track days from start to finish?

I've hosted a few 40-50 car track days with a few friends and we've always had run groups that were separated by car eras and driver level... thought it was pretty common but I guess not.

I'm talking about the PCA/BMW/Audi track days where I used to instruct--they don't have run groups for older cars because so few folks seem to bring them out. Perhaps they could try it and see if they could convince people to bring the oldsters out. I for one would love to bring my luftkuhler out, but that ain't happening for the reasons Jeff pointed out.

[rattlsnak]

That exact scenario happened to me but several years ago.. I had been running track days for 20+ years with several different variations of modded 911s and was always in the top 5% of lap times, and then when the 2000's hit, I too noticed a huge shift in comparable performance. My lap times had not changed but every body else's sure did with the newer cars coming out and finally by late 2000's I was in the bottom 5%. Just wasn't as fun anymore as you are constantly checking your mirrors, etc. plus the fact that I have been doing it for so long it became not as much fun. So last year I succumbed to the old adage, " If you can't beat them, join them" and bought a new GT3. I figure I have @ 10 years before I'll fall into the same category as before and then I'll have to upgrade again.. lol..

No, I will never turn the nannies off and yes it is the most amazing car I have ever driven on the track. My old "fast" lap times are equal to my cool down laps now..

[cairns]

I did the same thing and finally quit a few years ago. Had a 944, moved to a 993 that I kept for a good fifteen years and was getting smoked in the fastest run group. Got a GT3 and went at it for a few more years and finally said other sports beckoned. All my mates had retired or moved by then and I was tired of spending more and enjoying less.

Crikey we had green students show up in new GT3/2RS's and Turbos......all us old farts were making do with less than 300HP- some of us a lot less.....

[Ayles]

Originally Posted by madcorgi

I'm talking about the PCA/BMW/Audi track days where I used to instruct--they don't have run groups for older cars because so few folks seem to bring them out. Perhaps they could try it and see if they could convince people to bring the oldsters out. I for one would love to bring my luftkuhler out, but that ain't happening for the reasons Jeff pointed out.

All you have to do is look at any issue of Spiel or the FB page and see what cars are out doing the drives etc... You hardly see any air cooled participation.

[Jeff Higgins]

I strongly considered going vintage racing about eight years ago. A very good buddy and vintage racer offered to sell me his car at a very good price. It's a '69 911 with a very well built 2.0 liter (Monty Jarvies built it, for you locals). Very well prepped, consistent class winning car. Again, for you locals, it's the #65, car, in a pretty Irish Green. You all know who he is:



I'm not sure if passing this up was the smartest, or the dumbest thing I've ever done. While the price was amazing, discussing the true costs of racing with my buddy really scared me away. Hell, I would have to still be working if I bought that car.

My car would not fit into our local SOVREN (Society of Vintage Racing Enthusiasts) classes due to its 3.0 liter motor. At least it didn't used to, with a hard 1969 cutoff year for the longest time, then revised to 1974 or something. They now have a floating 35 year rule, so I guess it would be allowed. I would not have to do much to it from here - front half of the roll cage, fire suppression, electrical shutoff are honestly about it. But there is the cost. And the risk of wheel-to-wheel, even in a "gentlemen's" series like SOVREN (they have, and enforce, a "13/13" rule, wherein contact and general ass holery is "rewarded" with points - score 13 and you sit out for 13 months). Still, things happen when racing...

So, I dunno. Like Terry says, we have our somewhat locally infamous Alfa club. They actually do get more than two running Alfas to rub together these days, with the new C4 available. It used to be they counted on us - Porsche, BMW, Corvette, and other drivers - to fill out the field. They have always attracted older, smaller, slower cars, but they typically only run once or twice a year. There were many years (before the C4) were they did not run at all. I always go to their track days. Lots of fun with mostly similar cars, but like I said, they are somewhat locally "infamous". Pretty loosey-goosey with some of their requirements, rules, oversight, and all of that. Kind of refreshing, in a way, actually. At least compared to the (corporate liability) anal PCA. I just wish they ran more often.

[cabmandone]

Find a 996 with a blown engine and drop a Chevy LS engine in it. They are a LOAD of fun. I went for a ride in one a few weeks ago. I asked the owner about balance, engine cooling and brakes. His reply, The LS engine is lighter than the original engine, the cooling system is original as were the brakes. Did I mention it was fun to ride in?

[Jeff Higgins]

I could go out and buy a nice 996 or 997 tomorrow (a 991 might still be a bit of a stretch for me). As a matter of fact, I do own a 986 Boxster S. I have tracked it a few times, but it just isn't nearly the fun of my old '72 hot rod. For me, it isn't so much about being on track in just any car, it's about taking a car I love and driving it on a track. I really don't want to go "fast", I just want to drive my car at what is "fast" for it, if that makes any sense.