Navy pulls captain of TR

[Hard-Deck]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

...Captain Snapper who appears to have more experience and disagrees with you.

Thanks, but I'm no Captain; have been promoted a few times since then.

[Gretch]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I was not a carrier aviator, I flew off of Frigates and Cruisers. I did, however, retire as a Navy Captain on my own terms...I related some uncomfortable truths to my chain of command that needed to be said. I was not asked to come to the next promotion party.

Trust me, I could have gone the WaPo route in a second...I chose not to because I took an oath. I said what had to be said and took my medicine.

With all that in mind, I do, however, agree with everything you have written.

From what I have read he went outside the chain of command with an unsecured email with at least twenty recipients.

If that is the case, he got off light. There are secure comms at his disposal: Use that route and take the hit quietly if you are so inclined. He apparently wasn't.

My opinion is only based on what has been reported. My friend's son isn't emailing a word.

RNajarian, I didn't know you were/are a medical officer. Thank you!

Thank you. Real credibility is a very rare subsance in the world today. You possess it.

[Chocaholic]

Originally Posted by Kraftwerk

Tweed Roosevelt weighs in:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/opinion/coronavirus-crozier-roosevelt.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

The letter, once leaked to The Chronicle, quickly reappeared in papers nationwide. The immediate public pressure forced the Navy to relent, and it started arranging to get as many of the crew members as possible off the ship and into hotels in Guam.

Captain Crozier, however, paid a big price. The acting secretary of the Navy, Thomas Modly, summarily fired the captain, not for leaking the letter (for which he said he had no proof), but for showing “extremely poor judgment.” Many disagree, believing that Captain Crozier showed excellent judgment. He left the ship Thursday night to a rousing hero’s sendoff.

[Gretch]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

and"perfection can be the enemy of good."

"As movement defeats camouflage, complexity defeats the lie."













'

[Gretch]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

One small oversight with your dogma. The ship was in secure waters with no imminent threat. None. Floating off the shore of US controlled territory with 4000 sailors and a rapidly spreading life threatening virus on board. You are taking a huge leap to assume that he would do the same while in military engagement. There is no reasonable basis for such a statement.

Sorry...this man should be honored for protecting his men over the political gyrations of his safe and cozy superiors.

you are incredibly misguided. thank GOD you do ot command troops and are not at the point of the spear in the defense of this Nation.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Snapper33

“Bureaucracy is the enemy of talent”.

And that is why I do not do well in those hierarchical situations....

Because you are an Admiral it does not mean that you have any other talent except for being able to get your nose brown. The same is especially so in corporate structures... At the beginning of WW2 the US Navy was loaded up with Bureaucratic Admirals, where a series of defeats and less than favorable outcomes cleaned out the dead wood allowing capable men to assume the helm. The US military was manned during WW2 by Civilians who were intent on winning the war and getting back home as soon as they could and were not career orientated militarists. They did what it took.

The people who rise to the top in the Bureaucratic hierarchy have a common trait they are concerned first and foremost with their own self interests...the ship be damned so long as it does not sink and the paint looks good...

Years ago I was watching ole Charlie Rose interview the CIC of the Afghan army...he had gaming the US military down by citing all the metrics of how capable the Afghan army was... you may look good on paper but when the bullets fly the truth in the puddin shows up.

Ole US Grant was an abject failure at everything he did except for lead men in battle. He graduated from West Point liked to drink when he was bored which was most of the time, left the Army and failed as a grocery clerk...but when the CW came along and the chips were on the table he did what it took to win..

The only decision that he regretted was at Cold Harbor in 1864 where he ordered a frontal attack against a dug in Rebel position...it cost him 10,000 men in less than an hour. From being take em head on Grant he became end run Grant after Cold Harbor...Lee didn't realize Grant had an epiphany and moved his army to where he thought Grant would move next. Luckily for Lee he was able to recover in time because the Union army was slow crossing the James River. That led to the stalemate siege of Petersburg.

[Chocaholic]

Originally Posted by Gretch

you are incredibly misguided. thank GOD you do ot command troops and are not at the point of the spear in the defense of this Nation.

No worries Gretch, my opinion won’t harm you or anyone else. But I am not alone. People much smarter than me (and you) share my position. Doesn’t make it right or wrong...or threatening. But, thinking people will typically consider all sides of a matter. Seems you are not so afflicted.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

Like most here (this is a car forum) I don’t speak acronym but can assert from your rant that you have not been in a similar position. Your description only strengthens my argument and renders your opinion no more valid than Captain Snapper who appears to have more experience and disagrees with you.

And no, to me you are Cap’n Dan. And I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt going that far.

Reread this:

"As I learned more about the events of the past week on board USS THEODORE ROOSEVELT (CVN-71), including my personal conversations with the Strike Group Commander, Commander, SEVENTH Fleet, Commander, U.S. Pacific Fleet, the Chief of Naval Operations, and CAPT Crozier himself, I could reach no other conclusion than that Captain Crozier had allowed the complexity of his challenge with COVID breakout on the ship to overwhelm his ability to act professionally, when acting professionally was what was needed most. We do, and we should, expect more from the Commanding Officers of our aircraft carriers.

I did not come to this decision lightly. I have no doubt in my mind that Captain Crozier did what he thought was in the best interests of the safety and well-being of his crew. Unfortunately, it did the opposite. It unnecessarily raised alarms with the families of our Sailors and Marines with no plan to address those concerns. It raised concerns about the operational capabilities and operational security of the ship that could have emboldened our adversaries to seek advantage, and it undermined the chain of command who had been moving and adjusting as rapidly as possible to get him the help he needed.

For these reasons, I lost confidence in his ability to lead that warship as it continues to fight through this virus, get the crew healthy, so that it can continue to meet its national security requirements. In my judgement relieving him of command was in the best interests of the United States Navy and the nation in this time when the nation needs the Navy to be strong and confident in the face of adversity. The responsibility for this decision rests with me. I expect no congratulations for it, and it gives me no pleasure in making it. CAPT Crozier is an honorable man, who despite this uncharacteristic lapse of judgment, has dedicated himself throughout a lifetime of incredible service to our nation."

The Acting SECNAV could not be any clearer. You are ignorant of the core of the matter.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

and"perfection can be the enemy of good."

there is NO PERFECTION only the ILLUSION OF IT>

[tabs]

There is a singular FACT that we DO NOT KNOW which makes all of the SPECULATION In this Thread moot and thus pointless. In light of that, the QUESTION BECOMES...WHY DID HE NOT ONLY GO OUTSIDE OF HIS IN HOUSE MILITARY COMMAND STRUCTURE...but virtually PUBLIC?

The likely explanation is that it forces his Superiors DECISION into the light of day. Available for public scrutiny. It would tend to force them to respond in a way that would be desirous of what the Captain was trying to achieve. Which was the well being of his men and the readiness of his command to be operational. I would tend to believe that it was a thought out conscious decision of the Captains part...in a way a big fk you to his superiors who were probably living in denial to the seriousness of the circumstances on board.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by Danimal16

Read my post, my colors were at the battalion level, and down. COS of Regiment.

Lieutenant Dan, is that you, really you??

It's me Forrest!

[Chocaholic]

Yep...read it. I’m still entitled to my opinion. Are you implying there is no chance whatsoever that he’s covering his tracks under media pressure? There is no chance that the Captain was stonewalled and took to desperation to save his crew? The Navy brass is without politics and bureaucracy? Honestly.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

Lieutenant Dan, is that you, really you??

It's me Forrest!

Yep, that was me. But the Navy version. I am sure someone else now has the privilege of that esteemed rank!

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

Yep...read it. I’m still entitled to my opinion. Are you implying there is no chance whatsoever that he’s covering his tracks under media pressure? There is no chance that the Captain was stonewalled and took to desperation to save his crew? The Navy brass is without politics and bureaucracy? Honestly.

You really do not understand. He is highly capable, but also had the support of many of his peers and superiors.

That very same cadre of support has, I guarantee you, had a say in this decision. Just look at the SECNAV's statement. But, I totally concur with those listed in the SECNAV's letter that the good Captain failed, and failed in a significant manner. It is all there, but you refuse to admit it, or are incapable to do so. You are entitled to your opinion no matter how misguided you are.

Were you ever authorized to wear a command ashore or command at sea pin? Did you have article 15 authority? Have you ever done a CACO Call?

[Chocaholic]

Nope. But I’m still an American with a right to share my opinion. And note that I am not alone in that opinion as evidenced in this thread. No reason to insult or insist yours is the only point of view worth considering.

And...thank you for serving. I was a teenager in the Vietnam Nam era and had no desire for the meat grinder that Walter Cronkite showed us every evening. Thankfully I was barely young enough to miss the draft.

Oh, and you side stepped my very relevant questions. Telling.

[mattdavis11]

You don't put your men in harms way when not at war.

[astrochex]

I don’t get how people cannot understand after reading the statement, that chain of command is paramount in the military.

[Jim Richards]

I’m not surprised by the CO’s removal, but the civilian chain of command all the way up to, and including the CinC failed. Too bad only the military commander pays the price.

[mattdavis11]

I don't understand understand how the military overlooks key tenants of life.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by mattdavis11

I don't understand understand how the military overlooks key tenants of life.

Which tenets do you think the military overlooks?