LaGuardia accident, truck v airplane

[flatbutt]

How does this happen? Is it an ATC failure? Air crew error? I'm sure the NTSB investigation will provide the answer but dang.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c620w12y59nt

[masraum]

Yikes!

RIP to the pilots. Speedy recovery to the firefighters and passengers that are injured.

Wow! I heard audio where ATC told the truck to go, the truck acknowledged, ATC then told the truck to stop, and then started frantically telling the truck to stop.

[rfuerst911sc]

ATC/human error by listening to the audio . The tower gave permission to the fire truck to cross the runway AND to the aircraft to land on that runway . A split second error in judgement . There may be more to this but based on the audio no doubt who's at fault . RIP to both pilots and hoping all passengers and fireman that were hurt pull thru .

[Deschodt]

Pretty clearly ATC issue, the plane had touched down and was exactly at a speed that was too slow to take off again and too fast to brake hard enough.. The irony is the fire truck was crossing to help out another airplane which had aborted takeoff, for safety reasons (which was smart, but led to this tragedy).. These ATC people are overworked and understaffed and have been for a decade and I totally feel for them. I cannot imagine the pressures of that job juggling many airplanes simultaneously all day long and knowing one mistake could kill 100s. I've been listening to several youtube channels on ATC, accidents, airplane emergencies for a decade (as education and to improve my radio skills), seems to me the problems grow worse each year - that or they are reported more ? Either way it's a little scary.. I would not be shocked if a big accident happened any day now, there are way too many near misses near runways, runway incursions, airplanes almost landing on top of one another... The system is over stressed - much as I am not a fan of AI taking over, I think it could help tremendously (help, not take over, maybe second guess and raise flags)

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

Pretty clearly ATC issue, ...snipped.... The system is over stressed - much as I am not a fan of AI taking over, I think it could help tremendously (help, not take over, maybe second guess and raise flags)

As an additional check....not to be used as the sole arbiter? Sounds like it could work.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

..... These ATC people are overworked and understaffed and have been for a decade and I totally feel for them. I cannot imagine the pressures of that job........

Even more so over the last 2 months. ATC, along with TSA are essential workers currently not being paid to work.

[2.7RS]

I don't know.....

I was a young boy when I was taught by mother to stop before crossing the street and looks both ways before going.

Does common sense applies to this???

[john70t]

I heard ATC tell the CRJ 900 to land. Then for the truck to cross. Then tell the landing aircraft to stop in confusion. Then tell the truck to stop many times in a row.
Too late.
Visibility was acceptable and the truck didn't visually verify both ways either.

Some have been complaining for years that ATC built in the 1970s is inadequate for today's airports.
(DC was landing aircraft every ~30 seconds when I was there)

Pilots are doing interior functionality check lists, while visualizing patterns through rapid scratchy abbreviated accented 2-way coms, while in the busiest flight navigation area phase, while at the end of a flight and tired.

Personally I'd start over from scratch.

[serene911]

Apparently the plane was going between 92 and 96 mph at impact.

[HobieMarty]

I hope everyone recovers from this and my condolences to the family of those lost.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Jeff Higgins]

I hope my buddy Ted sees this and gives his perspective. He spent his career in ATC. Funny, even though we've spent several days together on a racetrack (one of my more memorable rides was around Buttonwillow, riding shotgun in Ted's Corvette), we never really talked aviation, even though I was AOG. I would love to hear his thoughts on this.

[wdfifteen]

The ATC communications seemed unclear to me. The truck requested permission to cross the run runway. The ATC response was basically “cross the runway,” That could be interpreted as either acknowledgement of the request or permission to proceed.
I confess that in my short career as a private pilot I found radio communications to be the hardest part..

[Dantilla]

On another aviation forum I visit, a former controller said late one night, years ago, he had maintenance workers on a runway, with the runway lights off.

Plane coming in, so controller says cleared to land, then turns the lights on.
Plane lands, then pilot asks: "Do you know about the truck right beside the runway when I landed?"

Instant pit in the stomach. Total screw up that almost cost lives.
When the lights came on, the maintenance guys saw a plane approaching and cleared the runway.

Controller says it haunts him to this day.

I can't imaging what it will be like for this controller.

[herr_oberst]

Always good to hear from Juan. Two other ground collisions in the last few years including one with a fire truck is not a good look for LaGuardia.

(And as of Monday afternoon LaGuardia is still closed. A travel inconvenience vis-a-vis the ICE agents stepping in for TSA has turned into a nightmare for passengers expecting to land or depart LaGuardia.)

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Dantilla

On another aviation forum I visit, a former controller said late one night, years ago, he had maintenance workers on a runway, with the runway lights off.

Plane coming in, so controller says cleared to land, then turns the lights on.
Plane lands, then pilot asks: "Do you know about the truck right beside the runway when I landed?"

Instant pit in the stomach. Total screw up that almost cost lives.
When the lights came on, the maintenance guys saw a plane approaching and cleared the runway.

Controller says it haunts him to this day.

I can't imaging what it will be like for this controller.

He takes that job knowing one day he can be responsible for death. And just because he may have been aware of that doesn't invalidate a thing, he still committed manslaughter.

[Brian 162]

I’m glad the 2 firefighters survived. They were hurt but not much was mentioned about their condition.
The local news here said one of the flight attendants was thrown from the wreckage and found on the runway still in her jump seat. She was seriously injured but alive.

[Jeff Alton]

I have been ATC for 32 years.....

Drove to work early this morning hearing about the accident on the radio.

Condolences to the family and friends of the Pilots who sadly lost their lives performing their duties.

There certainly was a grave error made. 3 secs later there was an attempt to correct the error which was not repsonded to.

However, there is a lot going on at the time that may seem inconsequential but likely played a role in the error being made.

I suspect (only suspect) the investigation will reveal some intersting systemic issues.

As with all accidents there are many contributing factors, and if even one single factor is eliminated from the equation, the accident does not happen. You can search out "Reason's Model" for a deeper explanation and it is the lense we review incidents with in many cases.

At any rate, that whole ATC crew/team who work in that tower, and New York Center are having a tough time right now. As is the entire Airport Operations team (which includes the CFR folks) and of course the Aircanda and Jazz group. Its an absolutely terrible event.

Watched the vids and listened to the tapes today in my classroom this morning with a couple of peers, and for us, it can't be unseen or unheard. Its the day we pray we never have...

Cheers

[jyl]

The problems with FAA and ATC have been going on for decades and decades, it seems. I read Congress won’t give FAA enough money to increase training class sizes?

[unclebilly]

I wonder if the pilots or the driver of the truck could not understand the unclear instructions from the tower. Perhaps this will be the incident that brings that 5hitshow under control.

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by jyl

The problems with FAA and ATC have been going on for decades and decades, it seems. I read Congress won’t give FAA enough money to increase training class sizes?

My reading is substantially different and to veer this away from the political cliff, it’s an extremely difficult job.

I believe it’s a 6 year program with a relatively early, mandatory retirement age.

All of that with the knowledge that one day it could be you that made that fatal error.

None of that points to a career I would want to see my kids going in to.