old (1991) Trane heat pump and "emergency heat"

[cabmandone]

Looks like you've got a 3.5 ton heat pump with electric resistance heat. I'd think 50 is a bit high for the balance point. I run mine (1994 Carrier) down into the 30's in NW OH. Some of the older systems had outdoor temperature sensors, set at the balance point, that would automatically switch the system to stage 2 emergency heat once the outdoor temp hit the balance point.

You hit Eheat with electric backup, you want to make sure your house is firmly attached to the earth because you're electric meter will be spinning like a helo prop.

In case you don't know,
Balance point: The point at which the extractable heat energy gets too low for a heat pump to adequately heat your home is called the balance point.

I used to install heat pumps with electric backup but I'd stage in the electric resistance heat to supplement the heat pump as temps got closer to balance point. What I mean is the heat pump and one bank of electric resistance heat would kick in. This kept the customer from bringing in 10Kw of electric resistance heat all at once like you'll probably be doing. I doubt the electric is staged.

And if this is your first heat pump, don't freak out if you look outside and see frost on the coil.... that's normal. As long as the refrigerant lines aren't frosting (that's bad), the coil will frost during operation. The system will have a defrost cycle that triggers by run time, temperature of the coil, or a combination of both.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by LakeCleElum

After almost 60 years of splitting/lugging firewood, my Wood Stove has lost any charm it might ever have had..........I'm over it come this next spring...

Hahah. I can imagine. Fortunately, our "winter" is probably nothing like your winter.

Originally Posted by greglepore

The propane companies rent them above ground, and inground 500 is around 2k to buy, and you need to install it, with appropriate anti corrosion control.

Thanks, I'd found a Texas company that had a website up talking about it. They mentioned a few things that had to do with in-ground tanks, like strapping them down in case of flooding, magnesium anodes to protect from electrolysis, various minimum distances for above or below ground installation, etc....

Originally Posted by cabmando

Looks like you've got a 3.5 ton heat pump with electric resistance heat. I'd think 50 is a bit high for the balance point. I run mine (1994 Carrier) down into the 30's in NW OH. Some of the older systems had outdoor temperature sensors, set at the balance point, that would automatically switch the system to stage 2 emergency heat once the outdoor temp hit the balance point.

You hit Eheat with electric backup, you want to make sure your house is firmly attached to the earth because you're electric meter will be spinning like a helo prop.

In case you don't know,
Balance point: The point at which the extractable heat energy gets too low for a heat pump to adequately heat your home is called the balance point.

I used to install heat pumps with electric backup but I'd stage in the electric resistance heat to supplement the heat pump as temps got closer to balance point. What I mean is the heat pump and one bank of electric resistance heat would kick in. This kept the customer from bringing in 10Kw of electric resistance heat all at once like you'll probably be doing. I doubt the electric is staged.

And if this is your first heat pump, don't freak out if you look outside and see frost on the coil.... that's normal. As long as the refrigerant lines aren't frosting (that's bad), the coil will frost during operation. The system will have a defrost cycle that triggers by run time, temperature of the coil, or a combination of both.

Lots of great info here, thanks. Regarding the bolded portion, are you saying that the switch to Eheat may or may not be automatic once the balance point is reached? What's the best way for me to test that, just leave the Eheat off when the temp drops and see if the Eheat light comes on, on the thermostat or if it doesn't and it gets cold?

[rfuerst911sc]

You have been given good advice on your existing system , limp it along the best you can until replacement . Last year I had an 18 SEER dual fuel heat pump system installed at our home in the north GA. mountains . It replaced a dual fuel system installed in 1996 . In our case our fuel is propane . Our electric bills since the new install have consistently been $50.00 - $80.00 LESS per month than the old system .

A dual fuel setup gives you the ability to heat/cool with the heat pump ( electric ) and when needed have the LP fired furnace kick in . For us generally the furnace comes on around 35 degrees and colder . I am very happy with the performance of our system .

If you end up going the LP route I highly recommend you BUY a tank vs. RENT a tank . When you buy a tank you can shop around for price/specials as any distributor will fill your tank . If you rent the tank the company you rent from is the only one that will fill it . At least that's how it is around here .

Adding LP also opens up the possibilities of adding a LP water heater or cook top or any other appliance you may want . I bought a used 500 gallon tank off CL for $200.00 and set it in place myself . It replaced a tank that the previous owner returned ( rented ) when we bought the house . Hookup was easy as everything was already there . Our house has the LP furnace and a cooktop , that's all we currently have running LP . Our tank fill lasts over a year so quite economical . Obviously the more appliances you add the more fuel you will go through . Good luck with your system .

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by masraum

Hahah. I can imagine. Fortunately, our "winter" is probably nothing like your winter.

Thanks, I'd found a Texas company that had a website up talking about it. They mentioned a few things that had to do with in-ground tanks, like strapping them down in case of flooding, magnesium anodes to protect from electrolysis, various minimum distances for above or below ground installation, etc....


Lots of great info here, thanks. Regarding the bolded portion, are you saying that the switch to Eheat may or may not be automatic once the balance point is reached? What's the best way for me to test that, just leave the Eheat off when the temp drops and see if the Eheat light comes on, on the thermostat or if it doesn't and it gets cold?

Yeah, if it has auto changeover you should see the Eheat light on. The other thing is, once it gets below 50, if it does change over you'll notice a difference in the supply air temps. Heat pump supply temps are noticeably lower. You can feel the difference just by placing a hand over the register.

Either way, I think 50 is too warm to change over. I run mine lower than that. Having an older home and being in the flat lands, when it gets cold and windy I'll switch over to Eheat manually rather than allow the thermostat to do it.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

If you end up going the LP route I highly recommend you BUY a tank vs. RENT a tank . When you buy a tank you can shop around for price/specials as any distributor will fill your tank . If you rent the tank the company you rent from is the only one that will fill it . At least that's how it is around here .

Good advice. I own two 1000 gallon tanks. I fill in the summer when rates are lower. A propane company wants you to fill when prices are higher so the tank will be sized accordingly. When shopping for a supplier if you own your tank, ask if they allow "will call" for fills. Many will automatically top you off based on degree days. The savings from "will call" and being able to shop for the best price can quickly offset the cost of the tank.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

You have been given good advice on your existing system , limp it along the best you can until replacement . Last year I had an 18 SEER dual fuel heat pump system installed at our home in the north GA. mountains . It replaced a dual fuel system installed in 1996 . In our case our fuel is propane . Our electric bills since the new install have consistently been $50.00 - $80.00 LESS per month than the old system .

A dual fuel setup gives you the ability to heat/cool with the heat pump ( electric ) and when needed have the LP fired furnace kick in . For us generally the furnace comes on around 35 degrees and colder . I am very happy with the performance of our system .

If you end up going the LP route I highly recommend you BUY a tank vs. RENT a tank . When you buy a tank you can shop around for price/specials as any distributor will fill your tank . If you rent the tank the company you rent from is the only one that will fill it . At least that's how it is around here .

Adding LP also opens up the possibilities of adding a LP water heater or cook top or any other appliance you may want . I bought a used 500 gallon tank off CL for $200.00 and set it in place myself . It replaced a tank that the previous owner returned ( rented ) when we bought the house . Hookup was easy as everything was already there . Our house has the LP furnace and a cooktop , that's all we currently have running LP . Our tank fill lasts over a year so quite economical . Obviously the more appliances you add the more fuel you will go through . Good luck with your system .

Thanks. We will need a new water heater eventually too, and the missus would like a gas cooktop, so going propane for heat, water and range would be good.

Good to know that in your area, renting a tank locks you into that provider. I'm not a fan of being under a monopoly if I don't have to be, and I can see that being a pretty common monopoly, "our tank, our propane."

The house has at some point had some sort of gas. I'm assuming propane. There's one corner of one room that's got a pipe nipple with a valve sticking up out of the floor. I think the room had at one point been a or the master bedroom, so I'm assuming it was for heat.

[legion]

Did a new hot water heater in March. Thanks to the EPA, they are super expensive now. I did a hot water heater in 2006 and paid $200, installed. This year, it was $2,000, installed. That said, I replaced and electric hot water heater (the previous residents LOVED electric appliances) with a natural gas one. My electric billed has dropped from $200 a month to $100, and my gas bill has doubled from $20 to $40 in non-winter months.

[billybek]

30 years of service from the old Trane unit!
Unlikely that will happen again....

I would do some serious research as to getting the most effective/efficient unit installed. I imagine you run your a/c down there a lot more than you run heat. Saving $50-80 per month on your electric bill will make the bitter pill of first cost much easier to swallow.

The cheapest install cost will net you something that Wayne has going on in his HVAC thread.
Re-sizing ductwork for airflow and seam sealing all the connections you can see makes a huge difference as does duct insulation where it is accessible to install.

Sheet metal is actually pretty inexpensive but the cost to install can be pricey. Beware of the installers that tell you that everything is great and flip in an air handler and condensing unit and give you a tail light warranty.

Usually sad install stories begin with these words. "I have found a guy that will do the job for way less than any of the other companies I have quotes from."
Walmart pricing? Expect cheap crap.

Going dual fuel is a great idea IMO.

[cabmandone]

Something to consider too, putting a high efficiency system in a low efficiency home doesn't create the anticipated savings. With the home being new to you, I'd consider an energy audit to help you create a plan for overall energy savings before updating the system.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by legion

Did a new hot water heater in March. Thanks to the EPA, they are super expensive now. I did a hot water heater in 2006 and paid $200, installed. This year, it was $2,000, installed. That said, I replaced and electric hot water heater (the previous residents LOVED electric appliances) with a natural gas one. My electric billed has dropped from $200 a month to $100, and my gas bill has doubled from $20 to $40 in non-winter months.

Wow, crazy. I installed one myself many, many years ago so the only cost was the heater and some misc bits associated with the install. The installation was really easy.

It looks like prices aren't insane on the heaters themselves, so I'm assuming it's the installation that you got screwed on. Good to know.

I'll probably end up paying someone if we go propane since the existing is electric.

[legion]

You may be allowed to buy the less "efficient" hot water heaters in Texas. I should have said "IEPA" instead of "EPA" in my post. In Illinois we are required to buy the ultra-efficient versions of everything.

[Flat Six]

Originally Posted by cabmando

Something to consider too, putting a high efficiency system in a low efficiency home doesn't create the anticipated savings. With the home being new to you, I'd consider an energy audit to help you create a plan for overall energy savings before updating the system.

^^+1

I worked for an electric utility and we did these all the time. For some homes (typically older homes w/lower income homeowners), we were able to refer owners to local programs that helped offset the cost of improved sealing, insulation, windows, etc. Our utility also ran rebates/credits for new heat pump installation and had a list of certified contractors/installers.

Of course this was in the uber green, eco-focused PNW. But well worth checking w/your electricity provider.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by billybek

30 years of service from the old Trane unit!
Unlikely that will happen again....

Right, pretty insane that the old system is still kicking. The previous owners would top off the R22 each spring, but otherwise everything is original as far as we know. The guy had a can of R22, and left it in the garage, but it feels empty.

I would do some serious research as to getting the most effective/efficient unit installed. I imagine you run your a/c down there a lot more than you run heat. Saving $50-80 per month on your electric bill will make the bitter pill of first cost much easier to swallow.

The cheapest install cost will net you something that Wayne has going on in his HVAC thread.
Re-sizing ductwork for airflow and seam sealing all the connections you can see makes a huge difference as does duct insulation where it is accessible to install.

Sheet metal is actually pretty inexpensive but the cost to install can be pricey. Beware of the installers that tell you that everything is great and flip in an air handler and condensing unit and give you a tail light warranty.

Usually sad install stories begin with these words. "I have found a guy that will do the job for way less than any of the other companies I have quotes from."
Walmart pricing? Expect cheap crap.

Going dual fuel is a great idea IMO.

Yes, AC is definitely the biggest expense here. Sub freezing temps here are the exception more than the rule. This house is 100 years old and built like a sieve. The folks that renovated the house in the 90s finished the upstairs (it was an attic, now it's 2 rooms and a half bath) and there's some insulation most places that I've looked. I think they also had the central HVAC installed. The ducts are all flexible.

Originally Posted by cabmando

Something to consider too, putting a high efficiency system in a low efficiency home doesn't create the anticipated savings. With the home being new to you, I'd consider an energy audit to help you create a plan for overall energy savings before updating the system.

Yes, I don't think the home would be considered "efficient" by any modern standards. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if it was more efficient than I'd expect. Our last home was built in '67, and was probably no more efficient than this one.

[legion]

Originally Posted by billybek

30 years of service from the old Trane unit!
Unlikely that will happen again....

I would do some serious research as to getting the most effective/efficient unit installed. I imagine you run your a/c down there a lot more than you run heat. Saving $50-80 per month on your electric bill will make the bitter pill of first cost much easier to swallow.

There is a tradeoff here that is not always clear. The most efficient units get their efficiency by having the most complicated computer systems with the most sensors. In other words, more things to break and go wrong. The most efficient units usually require the most expensive maintenance. If you want to minimize your overall cost of ownership, I'd recommend backing off a tier or two from the most efficient model.

[cabmandone]

Another tip. You can find calculators online for savings based on the SEER rating of your current equipment vs new. You can also run cost savings from a 13 SEER (current minimum) versus the higher SEER rated units.

[rfuerst911sc]

Just wanted to add the system we had installed has a lifetime warranty on the heat exchanger and 10 years on everything else . Other than normal yearly tune ups everything is covered if there is a failure . That warranty pushed me to go with the more complex unit vs a simpler lower SEER unit . My monthly savings on my electric bill will pay for the installed price in 10 years .

[masraum]

Originally Posted by cabmando

Another tip. You can find calculators online for savings based on the SEER rating of your current equipment vs new. You can also run cost savings from a 13 SEER (current minimum) versus the higher SEER rated units.

Anyone got any idea what SEER a good system would have been if installed in late '91?

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by masraum

Anyone got any idea what SEER a good system would have been if installed in late '91?

I think 10 Seer was the normal back then but not 100% sure. It might even show SEER on that label you posted in your first pics.

[cabmandone]

Well that's weird! I punched the Model number on your pic into the Google machine and couldn't find a manual for it.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by cabmando

Well that's weird! I punched the Model number on your pic into the Google machine and couldn't find a manual for it.

Yep, I've tried the model # for the indoor and the outdoor portion and got nothing. I can only assume that they are too old to be on the 'Net.