Natural Gas VS Propane
 

I'm thinking of converting from natural gas to propane. We have 3 furnaces, stove, hot water heater, 3 fireplaces (barely use the natural gas portion) and pool heater. We are in NE Ohio.

We are right on edge the "tiers" for the infrastructure riders etc, so our bill before we use any of gas is almost $200. I'm tired of getting over charged.

Any of my fellow Pelicans done the swap before or vice versa? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

I'm confused, I thought propane was less efficient, and cost more ??
I am converting back from propane to gas

"The true cost of propane vs. natural gas for your residence will depend on several factors, including if your home is outfitted for the fuels. But, for this comparison, we’ll examine propane and natural gas cost in terms of BTUs and gallons.

At the time this article was written, the average cost of natural gas cost is $6.23 per 1,000 cubic feet, which is roughly one million BTUs. The U.S. average cost for propane is $2.41 per gallon. One million BTUs of natural gas is roughly 11.20 gallons of propane. Which means for the same amount of fuel, you’ll pay $6.23 for natural gas and $26.99 for propane.

However, actual cost should also take into consideration efficiency

The more efficient the fuel is, the less you’ll use, which plays a role in overall cost. And, overall, propane is the more efficient fuel.

One cubic foot of propane equals 2,516 BTUs, while one cubic foot of natural gas equals 1,030 BTUs. That means, propane is more than twice the energy of natural gas.

While the cost per gallon is less for natural gas, you’ll use more of it to heat the same appliances. If you get two times the heat from propane, naturally, you’ll use less fuel.

In this combined round, propane wins for efficiency and overall cost."

It does not have any thing to do with the differences in natural gas vs propane.

Our issue is we use so much gas, we get bumped to a higher tier for the infrastructure and other BS charges on your bill, so before we use a drop of gas, our bill is over $200. Think of paying commercial rate vs residential.

Our gas bill for last month was like $260 bucks, because we are in the higher tier, my friend who used almost same amount last month was like $75

Its about not paying the excessive charges.

So why doesn’t that article say 1m BTU’s of propane cost X and 1m BTU’s of NG cost y?

Math is hard.

Check your propane prices. Right now summer fill, if you own your own tank, is 1.39-1.44 per gallon around here. It's more if you lease the tank. I have 3 gas furnaces, gas water heater, gas dryer and gas range. I spend around 1600 to 1800 annually keeping the House at 71 during the winter, shop at 55 and exercise room in the barn at 50 unless I'm in there exercising then it goes up to 65 for about an hour.

You should be able to calculated what your bill would be for propane by using the cubic feet of NG used and converting that to gallons.

I'm having trouble reconciling those two statements.

Stipulated that a million BTUs of natural gas cost $6.23 and a million BTUs of propane costs $26.99. It seems to me that if the end product you are looking for is heat (BTUs), how it is delivered - gallons, cubic feet, pounds, cords, or tons shouldn't make any difference as long as you are getting the most BTUs per dollar.
According to his first statement natural gas delivers the most BTUs per dollar. The second statement doesn't make a lot of sense. Propane has twice the energy density of natural gas and cost over 4 times as much per BTU, so how is that a win for propane?

Natural Gas VS Propane
 

Still missing something for me. So it’s not how much gas you’re using but the number of connected devices?

For me, aside from cost, one of the biggest drawbacks is that propane doesn’t burn as cleanly. In my experience, all the pots and pans had blackened bottoms.

You pay for the gas you use,

Then you pay for "Detailed Delivery" Charges, My bill has Customer charge, infrastructural replacement program rider, capital expenditure program rider, infrastructure development rider, delivery charge, and then a usage based charge. Company i am forced to use for delivery services is less than 3299 CCF, its this price, you use over 3300 CCF its this price,

We are just over the 3300, have been for the past 2 years, even though we have made significant cuts back. So before we use a CCF of gas, we pay over 200 dollars per month. In March we used 391ccf, $232 of "detailed Delivery charges", May we use 110ccf, and had $206 of "Detailed Delivery" charges.

I do not care if the gas itself cost more, i want to get rid of the $2500 plus year of bull**** fees.

Have you called the gas company and asked them to start using KY? :)

No. This is false logic. Heating is based on the BTUs. You may use less flow, but that does not mean more efficient.

Natural gas is usually about $5-6 per MMBTU. BUT as the OP said, his issue isn't the direct price per BTU, but the service cost.

What we need to know is how much gas is the OP using, then check the total cost vs. same heating value in propane.

Here's the deal:
In order to pay the least amount for propane you need to own your own tank. You also want to make sure you have enough storage to get you through the winter to fill at summer rates (normally). Figure out your normal natural gas usage for a year and convert that to gallons. Then figure out what the tanks are going to cost you to own.

Absent the above, you want to make sure the company providing the propane doesn't have you on auto fill because they'll come out based on degree days to top you off in the winter when prices are the highest. You want to be in "will call" if they'll let you but that means checking your percentages, understanding your usage, and knowing when to call in before you run out.

Maybe the solution is to convert the Natural gas fireplaces to electric. That could reduce your infrastructure charge.

Or get a 100 gallon upright tank and convert them to propane. Setback stats on the furnaces (assuming not all are in the house) might help too so you're only heating when you're using the space. On NG you could buy one of the new high efficiency water heaters from A.O Smith or State that double as water heat source. The things are crazy efficient and can heat spaces if you run a line and registers. Also check insulation of the home and reduce drafts which reduces furnace runtime.

Is your property such that you have a place to site propane tanks? Your county likely has property line setback and structure setback regulations.
All those surcharges are insane. How can anyone afford all that nonsense?

When we installed our pool, they did have to change out out gas meter and install a few new pressure regulators. The meter now operated at 2 psig instead of 7-11 in H2O pressure. This was to allow my pool heater (400,000 BTU/hr) to work. It also allows my Generator (300,000 BTU/HR) to work.

Maybe in his area, if you have the bigger meter, they require a higher surcharge.

Most of my bill in the Spring-summer-fall is service charge, as my hot attic heats my hot water heater way above the normal temp. And my only other gas usage in the summer is my stove.

Winter my usage goes up, but still pretty dinky compared to most places.

Correct, The service costs are the issue. When we bought the house it, was on a budget of 200 per month. Which surprised us, seemed low for the size of the house. We replaced one furnace, and made sure the others were up to par. First year or 2, we averaged right about 2400 for the year for heating, didn't really pay attention to it. Then one year we were over the tiered number for the increase in charges, price skyrockets, called them, explained we had a nasty gas leak on the pipe going to the outdoor grill (which was present since we purchased the house, and didn't realize it) So they waved the higher rates, for a year. And Boom next year, same deal we are over the usage number (except we now don't have a nasty gas leak, it should have went down just due to that).

So for the past 2 years I've been paying it, and i'm really fed-up with being charged more for barely anymore usage over the tiered limit. We had lowered the thermostat, used the fireplaces (with wood, not the gas) more for heat, and use the pool heater alot less. Gas usage should have went down alot. I've signed up for the gas company energy audit deals, with no response. I'm working on going to a wood burner for the pool and some other things.

I have a sour taste in my mouth, and really want rid of giving them any of my money. Gas company has said the tiered system was really designed to get business's to cover the expenses, but some larger homes get caught with it. At least with propane, i have some control over my fixed costs.

We have just under 3 acres, so i don't see putting in a 1000 gallon tank being an issue.

At the price difference per MMBTU, I just don't see how that is going to work. As some of the guys have said, use the propane or electric for some of the low use things to get you under the limit.

On the hot water heater, you could switch to electric heat pump. They are about 4 times the efficiency of electric resistance hot water. Pool heater would be a natural for the propane. But remember, you need to have the jets converted.

What I find mind-boggling is that your base bill is $200 before you use any gas. My highest gas bill in the last 18 months was $291 for February of this year. My lowest bill was $24 for August 2020. This is for a 2500 sq ft home with gas-fired hot water heating, gas hot water heater, gas stove, and gas dryer.

Exactly, that was my first thought.

I'm failing to understand why red-beard has things set up the way he does in his home.

The attic heats up the hot water, then he has another heater to heat up the water even hotter?

So you have in this order:

1) a water heater
2) the attic
3) a hot water heater

My water heater does just fine alone. Must be really cold water coming into your house.

I can't help with the rest, I have no meter, or propane tank.

Hot water heaters are in the attic. The year round setting is for decently warm water. In the summer, the attic is so hot it heats the water heaters water above the gas setting. Free heating...

Put an LNG storage system in your hood and get the neighbors on board,
Burden costs for distribution infrastructure in rural areas is the problem

But if the water is already hot, why the need? To be honest, I never knew they sold hot water heaters. I'm being a smart ass, it's a water heater.

I’m a little late to this thread but just so you know, you cannot convert your furnaces and water heater to propane. Manufacturers forbid it and do not sell conversion kits

It is astonishing to hear your base rate to be hooked up to natural gas. My gas bill arrived yesterday. For the honor of having an account, and a meter in my yard it cost me $33.35 per month. Add in the "franchise fee", and city tax and my grand total is $36.20 per month if I used no gas. Right now the only gas we use is for hot water, and cooking on the stove top. That was $4.83 for the last month.

I signed up for a program they offer that averages the bill over the year, and divides by 12 so I pay the same amount each month. It is $71 per month or $852 for the year, and that includes the insane February we had with a week of below zero temperatures, and the gas spot market going to insane levels. Bottom line my actual gas usage was $417.60 and the base rate for having a meter is $434.4 so my base service cost more than the gas I used.

It was really nice last winter to just stay warm and toasty in the house. We had no interruptions or problems except the ice and insane cold outside.

Man that seems like a lot of effort for the privilege of sitting in a cold house in the middle of a winter storm waiting for the guy in the truck to bring more propane. I agree with everyone, I’d be looking at how to get that gas usage below the threshold to get the bill down. Way less effort and wayyyy more convenient long term.

I grew up on a place with two 1000 gal tanks. It’s a nice alternative when there’s no gas line, but no way in hell would I switch from NG to propane!

Propane is a pain for me, you have to have a condensate pump to a drain. Propane gives off this sludge that constantly plugs up the pump. The condensate is nasty stuff that will strip paint right off the floor and make you Ill in a minute.

Wow, really? I had no idea. So he has to replace the water heater and furnace?

There must be some reason for that policy. I have no clue as to what.

I wasn't aware either...from looking at a couple OEM sites, they do have conversions from propane to NG, but all strictly forbid NG to propane.

Especially strange since it's very common to convert NG dryers to propane. Perhaps the more gas required, the more unstable it becomes?

All I know is I have propane in my current house, and had NG is my old house and would NEVER convert to propane... I can see no advantages, yet several disadvantages.

Yes you can buy a propane conversion kit for a furnace but it'll be through a licensed dealer and the dealer will have to install it. Dealers won't take the liability risk of allowing a homeowner to convert. When converting you have to change the burner orifices, gas valve spring, and add a low pressure switch to the inlet side of the valve. You then have to get the gas pressure set which requires a gauge or manometer to read gas pressure.

I can't speak to water heaters because they sell those as LP or NG. But every furnace I've ever sold came from the factory as NG and was converted to LPG where necessary. Every stove I've ever owned since living in my house needed to be converted and included a kit inside the stove. Every clothes dryer... same thing.

Carrier/Bryant doesn't seem to forbid it. From Carrier's furnace spec sheet:

https://www.carrierenterprise.com/bryant-evolution-97-afue-120-000-btuh-modulating-variable-speed-multipoise-gas-furnace-987ma66120v24

"Certifications - This furnace is CSA (AGA and CGA) design certified for use with natural and propane gases. The furnace is factory-shipped for use with natural gas. A CSA listed gas conversion kit is required to convert furnace for use with propane gas. The efficiency is AHRI efficiency rating certified. This furnace meets California Air Quality Management District emission requirements."

You guys have it easy.

In New Zealand our government. In their infinite wisdom. Wants to stop the use of gas because it's bad for the environment. they want us to use electricity for everything. Except we don't have enough electricity which comes from our sun and hydro lakes. So we'll have to burn some coal to make enough. Argh. It pisses me off. The whole of Europe burns natural gas piped down from Russia to heat their homes and our dumb ass government wants to ban the stuff so she can say at United Nations that we are holier-than-thou and get the warm and fuzzies.

Gas is one of the few things we actually have, and don't have to buy it from overseas. Socialist government for ya.

Not to hyjack, but I just got a small one-burner camp stove with a built in butane container supply. I also chose the optional hose for a quick propane cylinder conversion.
Which should I use to just boil water for tea on a 3-4 day track event ?
What is the typical life of a butane can ?
Do they both operate in the same temperature spectrum ?
Thanks
Bill K

I have a very good friend that is a long time customer service rep at East Ohio Gas/Dominion in Akron if that in any way could help you.

^^
What size can? How much water?

The butane cartridge comes in 8 oz cans.
Figure 3 qts of water/day.

I appreciate the offer, I am columbiana gas though. I got my latest gas bill, we are now 10 Ccm under the magic number for the previous year. Less than .5% under the number with major cut backs. I called and they said my yearly review isn't until Sept. I told them I took the pool heater off the system (which I actually did, kids are mad because the pools been very cold, and now they won't go in it), which should give the gas company a legit reason to review it now. Hopefully I'll hear back next week.

I'm working on a wood burner/boiler for the pool, and our hot water heater is due to be replaced so maybe doing something other than gas for that would be the ticket.