Anyone we knew?

[speeder]

The performance capabilities of the car factor into it, IMO. And a 997.1 GT3 is my dream car, especially in red. They handle, brake and accelerate so well that they can give a driver a false sense of security at triple-digit speeds...they drive like a dream at 90-100 mph on ACH but if the car gets loose for some reason, things go sideways really fast.

[CurtEgerer]

Originally Posted by speeder

Angeles Crest is a really bad place to run out of talent in a car. It's a very high speed road until it isn't.

I think some people get 'tunnel vision' on roads like this. They lose all situational awareness and drive no different than if they were on a track with safe run-off areas (i.e. hmmm, there's a 300-foot drop off here with no guardrail maybe I better dial it down a notch). I've driven Angeles Crest several times, once on one of these 'organized' free-for-all group drives and was behind a car with a driver way over his head that put right side tires off the pavement 3-4 times. You simply can't do that there. He was lucky he didn't kill himself that day. Looks like this guy's luck ran out.

[CurtEgerer]

Originally Posted by speeder

The performance capabilities of the car factor into it, IMO. And a 997.1 GT3 is my dream car, especially in red. They handle, brake and accelerate so well that they can give a driver a false sense of security at triple-digit speeds...they drive like a dream at 90-100 mph on ACH but if the car gets loose for some reason, things go sideways really fast.

That's absolutely a factor. A 911 GT3? You're upping the performance ante about as high as it goes. Even if you start pushing one to 75% of its limit, you are traveling at extreme speed and reducing your ability to react/correct on a road like that. And the faster you go, the more that unweighting becomes an issue on an undulating road. Who knows what happened in this case, but encountering an unexpected slight rise into a curve at high speed is scary stuff when the traction runs out.

[ted]

So sad for the family.
Even with the best nannies surprising how quickly a Porsche can spin.
Sometimes pushing a 911 is like driving a backwards hammer.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

I think some people get 'tunnel vision' on roads like this. They lose all situational awareness and drive no different than if they were on a track with safe run-off areas (i.e. hmmm, there's a 300-foot drop off here with no guardrail maybe I better dial it down a notch). I've driven Angeles Crest several times, once on one of these 'organized' free-for-all group drives and was behind a car with a driver way over his head that put right side tires off the pavement 3-4 times. You simply can't do that there. He was lucky he didn't kill himself that day. Looks like this guy's luck ran out.

I'm pretty sure I was on that drive. And several more just like it, with the same guys. Our luck did run out one day, and a guy did go over the side. He wasn't killed, but he did not get off easy, either.

We have now adopted Clint Eastwood's line from The Unforgiven: "we're (sic) not like that anymore". Things have calmed down substantially on "those" drives. Thank God, before any of us wound up like this.

This is just heartbreaking to me. We are all just trying to have a good time. Most of us are family men. Many of us have gotten our kids involved in this wonderful sport/hobby. And I think we all see ourselves, or even worse our kids, in those photos. But for the grace of God...

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

That's absolutely a factor. A 911 GT3? You're upping the performance ante about as high as it goes. Even if you start pushing one to 75% of its limit, you are traveling at extreme speed and reducing your ability to react/correct on a road like that. And the faster you go, the more that unweighting becomes an issue on an undulating road. Who knows what happened in this case, but encountering an unexpected slight rise into a curve at high speed is scary stuff when the traction runs out.

You know, I have had the opportunity to drive a couple of those at speed, on a race track. Unbelievable to me, just what these cars are capable of. Far more than I'm capable of, that's for sure. I think we have passed some sort of a threshold. It's just gotten to be too much, even on a race track.

Interestingly, many of the old time PCA instructors that helped me learn oh so many years ago have now quit. Every one I have spoken with has said the same thing - it's the new cars. None of them are comfortable riding along in one with someone of as yet undeveloped skill piloting it. The speeds are just too high, things happen far too quickly. I have to agree. I'll just keep on "driving my slow car fast", or pretending to be be "fast", anyway.

[berettafan]

Sad story for sure. When I found a tree some years back a pro driver I knew at the time said ‘your hands aren’t quick enough’. That was the end of my public hot dogging.

[pwd72s]

"A man's got to know his limitations"-Clint Eastwood movie line. When it comes to messing around in quick cars, that's very true. Stay under your limits, kids....

[Bill Douglas]

A lot can be said for "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow." Way safer.

A friend used to have a 964 RS as his daily driver. Now drives a 356 and loves it.

[911boost]

That is a shame, RIP.

I drove my 997 GT3RS today and that car will bite you the instant you make a mistake at speed. That is why I was on 45 mph roads and just cruising along enjoying the drive.

[A930Rocket]

Originally Posted by ted

So sad for the family.
Even with the best nannies surprising how quickly a Porsche can spin.
Sometimes pushing a 911 is like driving a backwards hammer.

So what did the white Porsche do wrong? Sounds like he let up on the gas, lost traction and spun?

Going airborne over the track had to be a thrill.

[CurtEgerer]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

You know, I have had the opportunity to drive a couple of those at speed, on a race track. Unbelievable to me, just what these cars are capable of. Far more than I'm capable of, that's for sure. I think we have passed some sort of a threshold. It's just gotten to be too much, even on a race track.

Interestingly, many of the old time PCA instructors that helped me learn oh so many years ago have now quit. Every one I have spoken with has said the same thing - it's the new cars. None of them are comfortable riding along in one with someone of as yet undeveloped skill piloting it. The speeds are just too high, things happen far too quickly. I have to agree. I'll just keep on "driving my slow car fast", or pretending to be be "fast", anyway.

As much as I can appreciate the 911 GT3 and the like, 'what exactly do you do with one?'. As soon as you start driving, you know the capabilities are crazy and resisting the urge to start pushing it takes a lot of discipline. Let's face it, they're boring at civilian speed. The fun starts at triple posted limits. Posted 30MPH curve? 60 is easy while adjusting the stereo and checking your FB status. 90 on that same curve probably requires you to put the phone down and focus a bit, but we're just starting to tap into its performance capabilities. ***** happens really fast on a public road at those speeds.

[ted]

Originally Posted by A930Rocket

So what did the white Porsche do wrong? Sounds like he let up on the gas, lost traction and spun?
Going airborne over the track had to be a thrill.

I'm not sure what he did wrong, must of transferred weight onto the nose and unloaded the rear too quickly?
Surprised the nannies did not prevent the spin?

[manbridge 74]

Judging by the steering wheel this car might have had brake bias adjustment available? Looks like the rears locked up like a mofo…

[greglepore]

Go to about 11 minutes and watch the oversteer.
I agree about the new cars-while crazy capable, less fun and more danger.

[Daves911L]

I’m very fortunate to have a good friend who is on the “special” Porsche client list. Even more fortunate, he trusts me to drive his toys. All of these things demand a great deal of respect, and wisdom, in addition to driving skill. My personal favorite of the bunch is the gt2rs. “Brutal” is a good word for it. But the engineers have made it so that grandma could drive it to the grocery store, and I can see where a guy could easily fool himself into an early grave. It requires discipline to not firewall it unless you are absolutely certain you know where it’s going when you do. Even then you often find yourself coming up on something a lot quicker than you expected. As others have said, it’s more fun to drive a slow car fast. Even with (or perhaps because of) 700 hp on tap, it’s not as much fun as a 356.

[pwd72s]

Regarding the fun leaving...I recall driving a friend's '89...felt like a Cadillac compared to my '72.

[DWBOX2000]

Tragic. RIP

[Jeff Higgins]

I remember many years ago attending an ALMS race in Portland, OR. The guest announcer was one Brock Yates. During a lull in the action, he mentioned that the fastest "GT" class cars were not on the race track that day, but rather in the spectator car corral. He went on to explain how the governing body intentionally kept the GT cars at certain prescribed lap times through their season on season rules changes. He explained how they had witnessed the on-track carnage increase dramatically when lap times were allowed to dip below a certain threshold in that kind of car.

This was probably 15 years ago, at least. GT cars still race one another at about the same pace, while their road going equivalents have gotten ever faster and more powerful. Like I said, we have crossed some sort of a threshold. One that is scaring off even seasoned PCA DE instructors.

[RSupdate]

This is the exact scenario Ted told me I would suffer if I did not learn how to actually drive and do it on the track....this was back in '03.....

[matthewb0051]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Kinda funny how your thinking changes as you age. Being old, I don't have any urge to prove anything.

I drove the Nurburgring when I was about 36. Twenty plus years later and I seriously doubt I would do it at this point in my life. No longer bullet proof.