Advice for Solar Installation

[911_Dude]

Id ask what the efficiency of their panels is rated at. Pretty good improvements over the years. They should be between 21 and 23% panel efficiency. If its less than that they are old, if more he's not telling the truth (ask for a spec sheet). One or two percent difference is significant in total output/sqft. Also ask what brand and type of controllers they will use. The two major types of solar charge controllers are: Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) controllers and Maximum Power Point Tracking (MPPT) controllers. The MPPTs are the ones you want for max efficiency. My personal preference for electrical charge equipment is Victron, hands down. Very advanced, rock solid. If they dont use Victron, ask them why not. There is a lot of cheap chinese crap out there that will do the job, until they dont. My .02, but Im hyper on efficiency. I just added solar and several other electric upgrades to my boat, and boats have somewhat different goals and limitations.

But if you ask those questions, the sales rep will at least think you've done your homework. ;-)

[Mike80911]

Originally Posted by 911_Dude

Id ask what the efficiency of their panels is rated at. Pretty good improvements over the years. They should be between 21 and 23% panel efficiency. If its less than that they are old, if more he's not telling the truth (ask for a spec sheet). One or two percent difference is significant in total output/sqft. Also ask what brand and type of controllers they will use. The two major types of solar charge controllers are: Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) controllers. Maximum Power Point Tracking (MPPT) controllers. The MPPTs are the ones you want for max efficiency. My personal preference for electrical charge equipment is Victron, hands down. Very advanced, rock solid. If they dont use Victron, ask them why not. There is a lot of cheap chinese crap out there that will do the job, until they dont. My .02, but Im hyper on efficiency. I just added solar and several other electric upgrades to my boat, and boats have somewhat different goals and limitations.

But if you ask those questions, the sales rep will at least think you've done your homework. ;-)

Thank you for the reply. Seems like a couple of valid questions to be asking

[jyl]

Originally Posted by red-beard

I have to sign up for a 20+ cents per kWh plan to get net metering.

Is this the utility trying to discourage solar, or is there a good reason for $0.20/kWh?

[3rd_gear_Ted]

I just installed a 6 Kw solar panel array and some 10 Kw battery units.
Time of use is a big factor in SoCal.
By programming the battery units to take over the load between 4-8pm gets you the most bill savings.
Next day solar panels charge the batteries and export power all day.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by jyl

Is this the utility trying to discourage solar, or is there a good reason for $0.20/kWh?

Not the utility. We have a "deregulated" market. What it really is is a series of in name providers or in effect billing companies. Each billing company has a different way to bill you. You can sign up with any of the 100 or so companies and they vary the rates based on the length of contract, type of electricity, month you sign up and how much profit they wish to extract. Some are fixed rate, some are TOU and some have weird games (free nights and weekend, or they don't count the worst 5 days of the month, etc. - one will pay to fix your Air Conditioner).

My company/plan charges about 10.5 cents per kWh fixed and does not pay anything for energy sent to the grid. A company that will pay (Green Mountain or certain Reliant Energy plans) you back for each kWh sent to the grid, but they charge ~20 cents per kWh.

It is complicated.

Some cities in Texas own the utility (Austin and San Antonio), and you pay what they say. Rural coops are similar. Most of those net meter, but the rates are quite a bit higher.

[Mike80911]

So the first company to give a proposal came yesterday here are the highlights.
They do all the work nothing gets subd out so that's one plus.
25 year warranty on equipment 10 years on installation
Net metering but the power company banks extra electric for future use, does not purchase it
35 cents per KW hour is my normal cost including all fees which is what i would pay for any power supplied by con ed if I need extra above my solar production
29 panels producing 12k KW of power 22% efficiency
System size 11.6
Controller is Emphase
Panels are connected parallel
Now for cost
$40,000 to buy outright
$330 a month for 15 years to finance plus I have to turn over my $12,000 federal tax rebate
$211 a month to finance with a 2.9% yearly increase for 25 years
My tax credits would be $5000 Local
Federal I would only get if I purchased outright.
$8200 Property tax break spread out over 4 years
My dilemma is I would only take the system if I leased it because hopefully, I will not be here much longer and my savings after paying the lease and utility company minimum charge would be under $200 a month so it seems like it is not worth the hassle.
Have a new company coming next week I'll see what they want to charge me
One thing I found interesting NYC does not allow homeowners to install batteries with solar panels which seems a little ridiculous to me. If I have a blackout, I would not have power even though I have solar. The salesman said some people install the battery after the installation without getting a permit, but the cost is about 15K each and he felt I would need 2. Also, a bit risky because if anything happens such as a fire it might not end well for the home owner.

[Evans, Marv]

I'm wondering if the efficiencyu of panels has gone up since I bought mine seven years ago. If the system they're quoting has improved that much in seven years. My system is 7.75kW with 25 panels which pencils out at .31 kW per panel. They're saying yours produces 12 kW at 29 panels, which is .41 kW each. That's quite a diference.
For me, I'd pay for the system outright either with cash or through a loan outside the solar company. That's just me though. At a cost of $40K with $12K tax credit; $5K local tax credit; & $8.2K tax break over 4 years; you're left with $14.8K cost to you. That's dirt cheap. Even if you leave and can't recoupe the total $8.2K, it still is cheap and the system might increase the resale value by enough to make up the difference. My system of 25 panels at the time cost me $19+K after everything.

[red-beard]

That seems a little expensive for here. Here is 5kW for $15K. But it may be right for your area.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

I'm wondering if the efficiencyu of panels has gone up since I bought mine seven years ago. If the system they're quoting has improved that much in seven years. My system is 7.75kW with 25 panels which pencils out at .31 kW per panel. They're saying yours produces 12 kW at 29 panels, which is .41 kW each. That's quite a diference.
For me, I'd pay for the system outright either with cash or through a loan outside the solar company. That's just me though. At a cost of $40K with $12K tax credit; $5K local tax credit; & $8.2K tax break over 4 years; you're left with $14.8K cost to you. That's dirt cheap. Even if you leave and can't recoupe the total $8.2K, it still is cheap and the system might increase the resale value by enough to make up the difference. My system of 25 panels at the time cost me $19+K after everything.

Yes and they are also making bigger panels. 2m x 1m instead of 1.7 x 1m. Some panels are near 500 Watts

[Mike80911]

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

I'm wondering if the efficiencyu of panels has gone up since I bought mine seven years ago. If the system they're quoting has improved that much in seven years. My system is 7.75kW with 25 panels which pencils out at .31 kW per panel. They're saying yours produces 12 kW at 29 panels, which is .41 kW each. That's quite a diference.
For me, I'd pay for the system outright either with cash or through a loan outside the solar company. That's just me though. At a cost of $40K with $12K tax credit; $5K local tax credit; & $8.2K tax break over 4 years; you're left with $14.8K cost to you. That's dirt cheap. Even if you leave and can't recoupe the total $8.2K, it still is cheap and the system might increase the resale value by enough to make up the difference. My system of 25 panels at the time cost me $19+K after everything.

To pay for the system outright would not make sense for me. I am basically retired and I do not pay local taxes on my pension so the tax credits would hardly benefit me and I would be absorbing most of the cost of the system and it would take many years to make up the cost through energy cost savings. After reviewing all of the pros and cons as well as cost at this point it does not really make financial sense to go with solar.

[hcoles]

Originally Posted by Mike80911

To pay for the system outright would not make sense for me. I am basically retired and I do not pay local taxes on my pension so the tax credits would hardly benefit me and I would be absorbing most of the cost of the system and it would take many years to make up the cost through energy cost savings. After reviewing all of the pros and cons as well as cost at this point it does not really make financial sense to go with solar.

I'm glad you came to your senses. These systems don't pencil out very well all costs considered. A 100% DIY approach might pencil out but it is work and risk.

[Joeaksa]

I have had solar on my house for 10-12 years now but the saving grace is living in the sun belt. Arizona usually gets 350 days of sun per year and that helps.

My 6.6 kw system is enough for my 2100 sq ft house but could be a bit larger. Friends have more and end up selling the extra power to the grid. My system cut my electric bill by 2/3rds, with the neighbors paying about $700+ per month during the summer while my last bill was in the $200 range. I do run the pool in the morning when my electric is cheap and do all of the "heavy lifting" before noon when my power costs increase but overall am very happy with going solar.

[jyl]

Hi Joe! Nice to hear from you.

[Essentzy]

I went through something similar last summer and found that using Raylyst helped me compare different panel options way faster than just googling around. It laid out specs and pricing side by side, so I could actually figure out which panels would give me the best return without overpaying. Also saved me from picking something that wouldn't mesh well with my roof layout.

[wdfifteen]

Pay attention to the net metering contract with your power supplier. AES here in Ohio will only allow a system that produces 110% of historical usage if you want to connect to their grid.

[Cajundaddy]

Late to the party but from the above numbers I see no way a $40k solar system pencils out as a win in NYC. A lease offers zero benefit and reduces the property value in a future sale. It is slight of hand. Mike's current electric bill looks eye watering to me and no mention of LED lighting which reduces lighting costs by 90%. This would be/was the first move I made to control energy costs. Average sunny days in NYC are 105, further suggesting solar is a losing proposition.

For comparison- My 1965 home in SoCal with ancient and inefficient 1985 HVAC @ 2350 sq ft averaged $200/mo electric with peak summer around $300/month @ $0.28kwh. Average summer high temps of 95*F. Average sunny days were 227, 34* N lat. No pool, no solar. Some of the "Beige Box" recent build homes near us in SoCal @ 3500 sq ft with high ceilings, no LED, no shade, and a pool often see a summer electric bill of $1600/mo. They are massive energy hogs with the highest energy cost/kwh in the US due to the tier system.

Our current downsized modern 2021 home in Idaho, 1900 sq ft with efficient heating/cooling, average elect cost $0.10Kwh. Average elect. bill was $60/mo with max summer around $120. 100% LED lighting. We are at 44N lat. but average 220 sunny days per year. Average summer high temp is 90*F but days are long. We didn't really "need" solar but our son in law is a solar distributor and had some panels that were last year models, no longer in high demand so we picked them up for a song @ deep employee discount and had them professionally installed. Total cost was less than 1/2 a similar solar install in the area and we have not seen an electric bill for 3 years. We paid outright and took advantage of the 30% tax credit so our break even point is likely under 5 years. We plan to stay in the house for 15 years.

Takeaways- If you have more than 200 annual days of sunshine and can get solar installed for less than $2.00/watt all in, solar might make sense. Otherwise, sharpen your pencil and really go after efficiency with LED lighting, modern inverter HVAC, attic ventilation in summer, shaded south and west facing exterior in summer.
Power companies are greatly reducing the buyback credit rate for excess generation so don't count on this for reducing your energy bill much. Use energy when your solar panels are fully producing which means south and west facing exposure to cover HVAC in summer. A battery might double the cost of your system so be sure it makes sense and pencils out. In TX and CA the answer may be yes.

[Deschodt]

You need to decide if you want to pay out of pocket (a substantial amount) for system of the size you really need, or for a smaller cheaper system that only helps "some" but you can afford, or lease a system (no cost to you for install, pay the man forever).

I am not in a position to say which is best, we are talking a substantial investment amount that even electrical savings would take decades to recoup, you may move, etc... Your "owned" system could face reliability issues and your installer could go out of business etc... The lease is probably highway robbery, but they are liable to fix it... + and minuses...

Me: I went with a lease, I'm OK with my choice 3y later, not ecstatic that they have a lien on my house for the panels for 20y but I didn't wanna shell out $60K. My results are: my power bill (total) went from $200 low -550 High to a constant $230 every month plus some variability with gas, call it $150 max extra in winter.. I still need gas for heating/water heater. So i'm not 100% free of utilities.

My net benefit in my mind is not so much how much I am saving - though I am saving a little:
a) my bill is very constant and predictable and inflation capped - my utility is not
b) I have a battery and therefore no outages - ever.. Even when they took down a power pole near my house all my stuff came back on in seconds, internet, work from home, etc... beats my old generator system. Storms, floods, brownouts, not me...
c) more power for other "stuff" - for the same $: Net metering is theft - they will pay you pennies... so I use it: I can use more power, more heater, more AC, recharge an EV 2x a week, and my bill is constant, I make enough juice that selling it back makes no sense, I use it.. so i get more for my $, even if I don't save enormously now (because I still use gas)

So will you pay less? maybe some, maybe a lot less, maybe not. Depends how much that costs you etc... What I got mostly from Solar is reliability when utilities are crap, or a line goes down, predictability, and guilt free consumption of power... Some savings sure. More savings for certain when i replace my gas furnace and water heater, but that costs $... If I did replace my furnace/water heater and bought the system, it would take a century to see my $ back. So you do your numbers based on your situation... All I can say is it works and having a battery is cool.

[red-beard]

Other than fixing spelling, nothing has changed from what I said 2 years ago

[3rd_gear_Ted]

Roof and solar should be approached at the same time. This allow some system engineering.
Thicker roof insulation and a solar system yield the biggest payoff

[zakthor]

Youve got gas furnace and hot water, all these improvements and yet the bill is too high.

Can you account for where your power *is* going?

Kwh of ac, lighting, your bitcoin miners? The neighbors extension cord? Etc, etc.

Theres got to be more savings you can find.

Ps wow i love the advice on this thread.