Any machining (Lathe / Milling) tool recommendations?
 

After seeing a few posts from the machinist types on here I've decided I'd at least investigate the possibility of purchasing a machining tool or two....specifically a Lathe and/or Milling machine.

I had an introduction to machining during 9th grade "metal shop" where I used various torches, grinders, saws and a lathe. But that was many years ago and much of the knowledge has gone bye-bye.

I <i>may</i> be able to draw on a local friend who, in a past life, was a very capable Swiss & German trained machinist. I also see a few books advertised, like the "Machinists Bible" or one that purports to disclose all kinds of tricks and tips.

As for the size of materials I'm looking to work with...let's just say I don't need an industrial South Bend unit. Actually the "Mini" units appeal to me. If the Distance between centers is 12" does that mean the longest piece of stock that I can machine will be 12" (or slightly less)? If the Swing-over-bed is 8" does that mean the largest diameter piece is 8" (or slightly less)? Is yes to the two questions then I think I'd be happy with that size....advice?

I'm also aware that a US, Swiss, German or Japanese machine would most likely be of the best quality but should I consider a Chinese model?

Recommendations on the following appreciated :

1: Which books or videos would you recommend?

2: I'd <b>really</b> like to consider a combination Lathe/Milling machine. Are there any decent and reasonably priced units out there? Any good sources for used equipment? Anyone have one they want to sell? :)

3: Where is the best place to buy stock? Any good places on the internet if I can't find local?

Thanks in advace as I initiate my investigation!

Get a separate medium-sized lathe and a bridgeport mill. Otherwise, you'll always wish you had gone bigger.

I agree....and check on the largest piece you might want to mill.....the bridgeport you choose should have enough travel to mill in a straight line without repositioning the work.
The lathe should have enough tailstock travel to do the longest piece.
Enjoy...
Bob

Check Smithy (www.smithy.com) Midas and Garnite models.. good bang for the buck

Regards

If you can afford it, get a Fadal or Bridgeport CNC.

I have a Grizzly Mill & 7" Lathe. Buy a bigger mill than you think you need. Grizzley is having a 'tent' sale soon, pretty good deals, but get there early. I bought a larger mill last year, and have an Enco Mill-Drill I want to sell. It is in like-new condition, and I can include some tooling & collets, but the problem with a mill-drill is finding center again when you change tooling, instead of just cranking down the knee. PM me if interested.

Here you go. Check the BBS, many helpful pros and hobbyists.
http://www.homeshopmachinist.net/

For books check out the machinists bedside reader series by Guy Lautard. Lots of old school, practical information and projects to help build your skills.

As for where to find the machines, check your yellow pages for machinery dealers. Many shops have bit the dust in the past couple of years, old bridgports are almost give away items now.

Be prepared to spend some bucks....

A decent CNC mill/lathe combo can go for 100K or more. You also need to learn G-code and a decent solid modeling program like Solidworks, AutoCad etc...

Jared. You would be amazed by what can be done by a highly skilled toolie. Spend a lifetime on a Bridgeport and there is not much one can't do. CNC's have greatly reduced the time to do things. A milling a pocket is still milling a pocket, and drilling and tapping a hole is about the same too.

Hmmm, I think I'll stick with a manual or Non-CNC capable machine for now.

Thanks for the replys....good start. Any other info is encouraged. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wishes to dable in this area.

Im quite aware of what the old guard can do. Unfortunatley theres not many of these artists left.

100K?? for a decent CNC machine??

Yea, back in the 80's that was the case, but now there are plenty in the 20k range or cheaper that will crank out production type parts all day long.


I have a Shoptask 3-n-1 (mill/lathe) that I converted from ACME screws to Ball screws and I have also converted it to full 3-axis Servo CNC control which runs off of an extra PC in my garage...I have about 4k into the machine (not including tooling)

I would not recommend a Shoptask, at least not the older unit like mine (1720), the newer ones I hear are much better, but I'd try to find one near by to take a look at it.


Right now with the economy the way it is, lots of shops are going out of business or selling equipment that is not being used. If you have an area with machine shops, go ask around, you'd be surprised at the deals that happen now and then.

I just passed up a deal for a Bridgeport knock off fitted with an older CNC controller for 3k....it had a few k worth of R8 tooling...the Servo controller was shot, but nothing a PC conversion couldn't take care of. The reason I passed this up was due to space, currently I have a 3 car garage with 3 cars actually in it !!!!

I also have the mill/lathe and a bunch of other tools, but my problem is space, i have to move the 911 out of the garage before accessing my mill, 'cause I'd hate to see a part or broken tooling hit the car (I once forgot to remove the key from the chuck on the lathe, it flew up and landed on the hood of my 914....luckly the car already needed a new paint job)

Learning G/M code is not that big of deal, nor is learning a 2D or 3D drawing package....you do not need Solidworks or any of those higher end packages. (I use Pro/E 'cause it's paid for and I've been on it for 8+ years :) I use a shareware to create the G code and then another shareware to drive the Servo motors utilizing the G-codes for movment)

Here are a few links that might help you in the furture.



Metal Working Links (great stuff)

Enco Tools

Home Shop Machinest Magazine and Forum

Mike,

sorry, I forgot that my CNC experience comes from the seriously high end, working on fully automated equipment. Basically all you do is load stock and thats it. I thought that this was the level you were looking for.

Buy a used Bridgeport mill, our machine shop sells them off when they are 'worn' out for 'precision' work, but still perfectly good for home use.

I find lathe work less common, a small one would be nice but it is cheaper to find a local shop to do these jobs. Just the tools alone make it impractical.

You should be able to get a good sized used mill for $3-4k (with no digital readout.)

Got three phase power?

If you are into the Do-it-Yourself things:


CNC Retro Fit Link


A DIY DRO is available as well, not as nice as glass scales, but for the most part, one wouldn't notice the difference.

they are even better than that, I use machine shops that have automated pallets to load the machines...heck, the only reason they need workers is to sweep the floor :)

Now back to the original question:

Do some homework and shop around, be leary of buying a tool that will need to be shipped....shipping can cost a lot of money (Dunkels Brothers is one such company, LOL)

I have bought some tooling from eBay, it's hard to pass up endmills when you can buy them by the pound !!!!!

Enco is always have sales, free shipping or free something.

now get out there and make some chips :D

CNC for home? For someone who is looking for a book on how to run a mill? Come on...

That is how I started....cranked away and then did the conversion...mostly for the challange and "something to do"


I use my machines in manual mode most often ,but once in a while it's very nice to run it in CNC mode, even if only doing a 2D feature.

For a few free books on the subject, check out the last two items on this page....They are in PDF format
Free Machinest Books for Download


They are old, but the basics are the same. You can download the books, chapter by chapter.

Thanks again! I have a good start here. I'll post my next questions on this subject in a more "acceptable" format.

BTW Mike, there is quite a bit of information on the link you provided.....wow.

Great link Mike. I am going to have to spend some time going over all the great illustrations. Some of those old bits of iron were pretty elegant.

Hey Rick-

Just something to bear in mind, before you dive into a big garage endeavor of machine tools...budget yourself $500-1k for some tooling to go with whatever you pick up for a lathe and a mill. I run a small development lab for my employer and the bucks for the cutters/end mills/inserts/drills/facing tools/etc. can add up quick...

It would really kinda stink to put a few g's into your neat stuff for the garage, and then find out that for every project you want to try, it requires more tools. Of course this tapers off after a while, but you'll want to consider a full set of collets and a drawbar for your lathe, as well as a good chuck, some cutting tools with replaceable cutting inserts, and a boring bar.

As for your mill, a set of R8 collets and a drill chuck, a good table vise, some double fluted/double ended mills, and an edge finder will get you going. Check out www.mcmaster.com for pretty much anything you need.

More thoughts...I've found Taiwanese machines are the best bang for the buck...maybe a "gap" bed lathe (has a removable section on the ways to allow a bigger swing for big pieces), stay away from combo machines (they don't do anything well or of any size IMO), DRO's (digital readouts) are way nice if you can do it), my mill and lathe are spendier but have "inverter drives" which allow them to be run on 110v, if ya don't have 230 in the garage you might have problems, I could go on but I gotta get to bed...:D

BTW Jared, Bridgeport filed for bankruptcy, they got the wee sued out of them over controllers on their CNC's...and a HAAS will run circles around those things...

-BG

1) If you can, get a milling machine with R8 collet. Some of the combo machines have weird size, and require non-standard collets. That was advice I received when I was shopping.

2) The best way to learn how to use the machine is to do it. The books are just a guide. The book won't tell you what to expect when your cutter is turning 4500 rpm, and you think the whole kaboodle is about to explode.

3) I vote for a full size milling machine. I have a Newport, which is an American-made Bridgeport knockoff. The machine has backlash like mad, but the DRO allows for some precision. I would never try to achieve .001" accuracy with this milling machine, but for what I do, it is not necessary.

My brother and I do occasional fabrication, and the milling machine has more than paid itself off. A simple task like drilling a piece of angle iron is trivial with a 2000 lb. milling machine. I think you can find a good used American-made machine for no more than $1000-2000. Try to buy a collection of tools from a retired machinist or shop. That's your best bang for the buck. Then, suppliment the basic tools with new bits from a place like Enco (Mueller gave a link earlier). Enco sells Import and USA tools, so you have a choice. For tools I rarely use, I buy Imported (dirt cheap). For heavily used, go USA. The other place to find tools is Ebay. When you can buy a new USA-made tool for the price of Enco's Import, you can't lose.

Any machinist could go on and on with advice.

Jurgen

I agree with turbo6bar's comments all the way. Another thing to think about is moving the equipment. You'll need to line someone up that can offload it from a truck to your garage, and then shuttle it in to tight quarters through the garage door...

"Throwing chips" is addictive...once you have the equipment you'll wonder how you did without it...!

BG & Jurgen: Good advice. Ideally I'll locate a retired machinist or similar locally.....try to go for a package deal. Maybe I'll put a "Wanted to Buy" ad in the local paper. Almost always works.

A little overkill for home use, but one we are looking at.
http://interactive.fptindustrie.com/fpt/FPT.nsf/ProductsEn/026BCFF3064E581BC12569F3004D19F6?OpenDocument

I think it's still a little small for our needs.

I dunno. I'm partial to the Dino. The red paint looks nice and 3 milling heads is a nice feature. ;)

Rick, another thing I forgot to mention:

For aluminum stock, get Fortal from http://www.mousebar.com/fhome.html Good bar stock really cheap.

The other place for aluminum is Aircraft Spruce, http://www.aircraftspruce.com

For steel stock, I buy locally.


Jurgen

Thanks for the good link for the fortal. I find that most of my little projects are fine in 6061. Speaking of which, if you are in a area with plenty of shops you should make friends with them. A lot of cut offs go out in the chip barrels because they are too hard to keep track of for cert reasons.

I'm partial to the Dino. The red paint looks nice and 3 milling heads is a nice feature.

The dino is pretty, but too small. The automated changing of the heads is a nice touch. We currently swap manually and it's a 45min job to get everything cleaned up and done neatly.

Hey 5axis,

Is there a PPI service that one could purchase for used machine tools?

You want to talk to the guy that used to run the machine, not the guy selling it :)

You're right..... I'd probably find him at the local unemployment office.

Alot of machine tools coming onto the market now seems to be from failed manufacturing businesses.

I've bought several machines from auction, the operators always seem to be around to see where their old machines end up. They also know the machines inside and out.

how do the prices at auction compare to the prices from a reseller or ebay? they're probably less but how much less? are they really worth taking a day off from work to go to?

I have seen really low prices on big machines, anything that is small business/garage size tends to be less of a bargain, as there are always more bidders. Small Taiwanese mills often got for 75% of the new price, that is way too high.

For a Bridgeport there is not much geometry you couldn't check with a indicator and good reference square. The head should sound good. Meaning the bearings and gears are okay. Try the handles and feel the backlash or lack of it and that's about it. All of these issues can be rebuilt/ repaired but with so many machines on the market you should be able to find a nice young tight one. ;) Good work can be done with a older looser one too. Adjusting the gibs and using the table locks can overcome a lot of probelms. Add a DRO and you can do a lot of very nice accurate work.

CNC's get more complicated. There are companies that can run tests and calibrations for you.

If you need nore info on service/ setup tech try tracking down Machintek on pelican. This is more his specialty.

Here's my update:

Went to the library and took a couple of books...they were marginal and old but served well for some of the basics. I found another excellent website that covers the history of many lathe manufacturers and excellent novice information, including a "what to look for when you buy" guide. http://www.lathes.co.uk/index.html

Just put a Wanted to Buy ad in a local "Want Ad Press" paper...waiting to see the results of that.

Going tomorrow to look at a Clausing lathe that a friend has at his shop.... he said he'll give to me cheap as it's too small for his needs...could be a good find.

I'll continue to update, hopefully with pics.